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Nov 13, 2017 10:27 AMPublication: The Southampton Press

UPDATE: Zeldin Votes No On GOP Tax Bill In House Thursday

U.S. Representative Lee Zeldin
Nov 16, 2017 5:15 PM

UPDATE: Thursday, 4:18 p.m.

U.S. Representative Lee Zeldin voted against the House of Representatives tax bill, joining 12 Republicans and all Democrats in opposing the legislation which passed on Thursday afternoon 227-205. "While I like many aspects of this tax reform plan, too many of my constituents would not see tax relief under this plan as it is currently drafted," Mr. Zeldin said in a press release.

In the Senate, where at least one Republican, Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin, has confirmed publicly that he will not support the bill in its current form, the legislation's chance of passing is much less certain. Assuming that all Senate Democrats will vote against the bill, Republicans can only afford to lose two of their members' votes to eke out a win with Vice President Mike Pence's tie-breaking vote. The full Senate is expected to vote on the bill soon after Thanksgiving.

ORIGINAL STORY:

U.S. Representative Lee Zeldin is standing firm this week that he will vote against the Republicans’ proposed tax bill in the U.S. House of Representatives, which, in its most recent draft, still eliminates most state and local tax deductions—a refund critical in New York, one of the most highly taxed states in America.

The House version of the legislation unveiled on Thursday, November 9, does feature the small consolation prize of property tax deductions up to $10,000, while the U.S. Senate version eliminates the deductions completely.

“I am still a no,” Mr. Zeldin said in an interview on Friday regarding the House version of the bill.

He pointed out that his objection to eliminating the deductions has been constant since the plan’s first draft, and that the capped deduction in the newest version is not enough to sway his vote.

Despite his opposition, he expects the bill to pass in the House anyway.

“I don’t know what the whip count is, but if I had to guess I’d think the bill has enough support to pass the House currently,” he said. “There’s a lot of unity behind this bill,” he added, referring to his fellow Republicans as the current draft has garnered no Democrat support thus far, passing out of the Ways and Means Committee on a 24-16 party-line vote.

The full House is expected to vote on the bill later this week, with party leaders still courting Republican holdouts like Mr. Zeldin, who met with Vice President Mike Pence at the end of October to discuss his concerns.

“The discussions have been constant for months, straight through to this morning,” he said on Friday, adding that his conversation with Mr. Pence was productive.

Though it seems that the support of Mr. Zeldin’s Republican peers might be enough to push the bill through on the House side, he is much less confident about the Senate’s ability to pass its current version. “I have no idea,” he said. “I’ve decided in 2017 not to predict outcomes in that chamber.”

If the House and Senate pass different versions of the bill, members from both chambers will be appointed to a conference committee and charged with reaching a compromise that’s palatable to both sides. The reworked bill would then go back to both chambers for another vote.

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Props to Mr. Zeldin for his opposition. Obviously “There’s a lot of unity behind this bill” so it'll pass anyway, but I'm proud my congressman didn't vote to cut the tax on dynastic wealth over $5.5 Million.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 13, 17 11:44 AM
He 's awful but not suicidal. Even King is against it.
By harbor (296), East Hampton on Nov 13, 17 11:57 AM
Thanks for doing the right thing for your constituents Lee!
By bigfresh (2984), north sea on Nov 13, 17 1:08 PM
I feel like this foreshadows just how bad the SALT hit is gonna be...
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 13, 17 1:20 PM
All that King and Zeldin are doing is saving their own butts, and enabling the Democrats at the same time. It is the voters who chose to make NY a blue state, and they want the voters in other states to subsidize blue state policies. If King and Zeldin cared about their constitutes, they would seek to lower taxes in NY, not hide behind their fellow Republicans to escape blame. What a couple of cowards!
By gusef (28), Southampton on Nov 13, 17 3:59 PM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By gusef (28), Southampton on Nov 13, 17 3:59 PM
More federal tax dollars come from New York than are spent in the state. It's New York doing the subsidizing, and some of the reddest states getting subsidized.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 13, 17 4:04 PM
1 member liked this comment
The issue before us is the deducibility of State and local taxes.
By gusef (28), Southampton on Nov 13, 17 4:26 PM
Fore1gnBornHBgrownMovedtoFloridaForCheaperTaxes
By pw herman (704), southampton on Nov 13, 17 4:52 PM
1 member liked this comment
Gusef: You said "they want the voters in other states to subsidize blue state policies."

That statement is wrong. New York is not subsidized by other states, it's actually the other way around.

Pw: I've gone on record that the only thing I'd trade with Florida is weather.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 13, 17 5:21 PM
I was not referring to Federal balance of payments, I was simply stating that if State taxes were not deductable, it would put more pressure on Albany. King and Zeldin are simply enabling State lawmakers. It's fine if the voters in NY wish their state to be blue, but it has proven, and will continue to be proven an expensive option. Live with it. The Federal balance of payments is a separate issue, and should be viewed as such.
By gusef (28), Southampton on Nov 13, 17 6:41 PM
So explain to me how voters in other states are subsidizing blue state policies.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 13, 17 9:23 PM
If you write off your property’s taxes, using your own democratic logic, you are “costing” the government ie taxpayers money. Due to rampant progressive liberal corruption our NY and CA pay highest state and local taxes in the nation. By writing those expenses off we do not contributes our fair share. The answer is to stop progressive liberal corruption but it can’t be done overnight. It’s unfair to punish taxpayers for the sins of democratic politicians.
By SlimeAlive (627), Southampton on Nov 14, 17 7:36 AM
I was asking gusef, but thanks for your input Slimy. I'm hesitant to believe you though, because you continue to lie about Trump's campaign not receiving direct donations from the NRA (he did).

In any event, you're literally arguing for more of New York's federal tax dollars to go to other states, when we already get less than a dollar back for every dollar that goes out. That's the opposite of "other states subsidizing blue state policies"; that's asking for even more charity for Mississippi, ...more
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 14, 17 7:55 AM
No. I'm arguing for NY Progressive Democrats to be more ethical stewards of our money and for the federal government to not punish NY taxpayers without giving the NY Progressive Democrats time to stop the bleeding.

Your goal shouldn't be to get more of other people's money. It should be to keep more of our own vis a vis lowering state and local taxes through the arresting of graft, corruption, theft and laziness.
By SlimeAlive (627), Southampton on Nov 14, 17 8:31 AM
Thank you for not insisting that Trump didn't receive NRA contributions this time.

The rest of your post is an admission that you'd rather pay more through the repeal of SALT today in the hope that increased taxes would prompt state legislators to lower state taxes, without addressing why we're cutting the SALT deduction: to balance out corporate tax rate cuts and repeal the estate tax.

Unless you own more than $5.5 Million in wealth you're cutting off your own nose to spite your ...more
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 14, 17 8:42 AM
Here's a noble thought. If NY state didn't have such a massive state government packed with waste and inefficiency, taxes wouldn't be so high.
By BillWillConn3 (144), Southampton on Nov 13, 17 8:02 PM
1 member liked this comment
M2 Nov. 12th 2007: 7.4 trillion dollars

M2 Nov. 13th 2017: 13.7 trillion dollars
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 13, 17 8:33 PM
Please Mr. Z, help me understand the relevance, cuz I just don't see it.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 13, 17 10:41 PM
1 member liked this comment
Reference: "When Money Dies" by Adam Fergusson

Ten years, 6.3 trillion dollars printed out of the clear blue sky. There is no simpler cause and effect of supply and demand than the supply of fiat currency.

By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 14, 17 4:04 AM
He doesn’t know either.
By even flow (496), East Hampton on Nov 14, 17 6:19 AM
Bizarre.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 14, 17 9:57 AM
Thank you, you said what I was trying to say with fewer words.
By gusef (28), Southampton on Nov 14, 17 10:13 AM
What's the matter?

I have to hold your little conservative hands and lead you down the path to knowledge and epiphany?

Y'all really are the worst bull**** artists ever to put fingers to a keyboard.
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 14, 17 7:39 PM
M2 correlation to NYS waste, inefficiency and taxes will remain a mystery.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 14, 17 7:56 PM
Well, I'll tell you the same thing you tell others. Get off your *** and do the work to find it. Because the correlation does exist.

There's actually and old joke about Germany's Weimar Republic. Their currency was so debauched and prices so ridiculous that a thief stole a suitcase full of German Marks. He dumped the cash, and kept the suitcase...
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 14, 17 8:52 PM
And the mystery thickens with additional coded quips. All of a sudden, you're a vault Mr. Z., one just has to wonder why that is when an honest request for clarity was all that was asked.

What does the price of eggs in China have to do with the suitcase?

M2 Nov. 12th 2007: 7.4 trillion dollars
M2 Nov. 13th 2017: 13.7 trillion dollars

He replied.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 15, 17 1:42 PM
Come on, this is easy. If you have to ask me why M2 is important, then maybe it just proves you don't know jack **** and are full of it.

Come on, impress us for a change. Or, do you prefer being under a bridge?
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 15, 17 8:25 PM
What part of this...

"Please Mr. Z, help me understand the relevance, cuz I just don't see it."

Did you not understand?
Nov 15, 17 9:29 PM appended by Po Boy
The question isn't why the M2 is important, the question is how is it relevant to: "Here's a noble thought. If NY state didn't have such a massive state government packed with waste and inefficiency, taxes wouldn't be so high."
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 15, 17 9:29 PM
No, I understand.

You're full of...
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 15, 17 9:46 PM
So, there is no correlation.

Truly bizarre.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 16, 17 12:16 PM
It's called "catch and release"

They caucus behind closed doors to make sure they have the required votes to pass...then they "release" votes from districts which would be negatively impacted, so the local legislator can strut around telling his constituents how he bucked the wishes of his party in favor of the interests of his district.

Then the local voters write wonderful things about him in the local news feed as they prepare themselves to watch the value of their homes drop ...more
By aging hipster (129), Southampton on Nov 14, 17 6:15 AM
Frankly, whether his vote is fueled by genuine concern of constituents or fear of blowback, it's still a no. The more scared Zeldin is of us, the better.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 14, 17 6:20 AM
Sophism. He is very specific in his reasoning. Property taxes is his singular concern. Makes a lot of sense. Nice to have responsive representation in DC after the bishop family politicized everything through the career criminal that lost the election last year.
By even flow (496), East Hampton on Nov 14, 17 6:55 AM
Controlled opposition is a real thing, even. He gets credit for being part of the "No" votes, but he's not exactly fighting to stop the bill altogether on our behalf.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 14, 17 7:33 AM
Stop the bill why? He's not supposed to be for middle class tax cuts or tax reform?

What would you suggest the Good Congressman do to stop the bill altogether?
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 14, 17 10:04 AM
To call this bill "middle class tax cuts" is a blatant lie, particularly for New Yorkers, unless you subscribe to the idea that anyone outside of the top tax bracket is "middle class."
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 14, 17 10:06 AM
Ok, no answer noted on what YOU suggest what Mr. Zeldin should do to stop the bill.

For the vast majority of middle class Americans, it is a tax cut. You're repeating blatant Leftist lies, proven incorrect with Four Pinocchio's by the Washington Post.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 14, 17 10:35 AM
Friday senior Republicans admitted that their assertion no middle class families would see higher tax burdens was a LIE.

For starters, Zeldin could speak out on the bill publicly rather than advocate behind closed doors. As a member of the committee that oversees the baking (see: mortgage) and housing industries, he'd be speaking from a position of authority on the impacts of reducing or eliminating the SALT and mortgage-interest deductions.

Perhaps he could even propose some amendments ...more
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 14, 17 10:49 AM
Very slick Fore... who said "->no <- middle class families would see higher tax burden?" Republicans have said most middle class would receive a tax break while democrats have said most would receive a tax increase. Democrats were proven to have lied.

I've personally seen Mr. Zeldin on multiple occasions speak out publicly on the bill and ways it falls short. The amendments you seek Mr. Zeldin to pursue have already been taken as part of the subcommitte and committee action. What you are ...more
Nov 14, 17 2:58 PM appended by Po Boy
Mr. Zeldin is fighting the good fight to the best of his ability within protocol and process.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 14, 17 2:58 PM
Actually, the Senate Majority Leader, among others, originally said NO middle class families would see an increased tax burden, then had to walk that back.

There are degrees of opposition, and for me Zeldin's is lackluster.

I'll give him credit for his "Nay" but not for failing to secure concessions on the items that will impact his constituents the most.

You can, of course, differ from that opinion, and it's no sweat off either of our backs.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 14, 17 3:05 PM
I'm certain you do realize Mcconnell walked that back, and you call that a "blatant lie"? Well, you do take your marching orders well it would seem. From The Hill -

"I misspoke on that. You can't guarantee that absolutely no one sees a tax increase," McConnell told The New York Times on Friday."

McConnell added that "what we are doing is targeting levels of income and looking at the average in those levels and the average will be tax relief for the average taxpayer in each of ...more
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 14, 17 6:50 PM
Did you also see the internal memo that labeled people in all but the top tax bracket "middle income"? Do you agree with that?
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 14, 17 7:49 PM
Didn't see it, couldn't find it, and not really sure it matters. Middle class is different depending on where you live in the country given income and cost of living. The Washington Post used $86,000 as the benchmark in their analysis to debunk the Democratic claims.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 14, 17 8:00 PM
Median family income is closer to $55k, but dips as low as $40k in poor (Red) states and goes as high as almost $80k in others.

New York State is $63k.
Nov 14, 17 9:19 PM appended by Fore1gnBornHBgrown
One Newsweek article is called "Republican House Members Think a $450K Salary is Middle Class," you should be able to find it with little effort.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 14, 17 9:19 PM
I would suggest that in certain parts of the country, the 35 percent tax bracket IS damn near middle class. A bit nit picky of critics if you ask me singling out a talking point bullet of an internal closed-door document.

I'm in no way supporting the GOP plan because I too think it falls short, I'm simply defending from misleading criticism that only will serve to derail any progress.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 15, 17 8:57 AM
You gotta be kidding me...the 35% tax bracket encompasses single people or married couples earning $413,351 to $466,950 per year.

To call that middle class in any context across the nation is outrageous and such views are insulting to people who are actually struggling. You know: the forgotten men and women who, lo and behold, are being forgotten.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 15, 17 9:05 AM
And hence the focus of your earlier question, "Do you agree with that?"... the end game was to attack me personally. Gee, didn't see that coming. That's fine. But if you remove the emotion and the label of "middle class", cost of living is significantly different across the country. That's all I'm saying. Deal with it.
Nov 15, 17 9:13 AM appended by Po Boy
"Middle Class" is really the perception of the person who is trying to make ends meet each month. Ask a family living in Manhattan or San Francisco or one with severe financial strains.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 15, 17 9:13 AM
And I'm suggesting to you that a person or family living in Manhattan or San Francisco can make ends meet at far less than $413,351 a year.

Even the state with the highest median family income (Maryland) tops out at $79k.

In San Francisco average family income is $104,879 and median family income is $77,734.

Even on 5th avenue across from Central Park, median family income doesn't break $245k.

To say the 35% tax bracket is part of the middle class is insulting ...more
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 15, 17 9:26 AM
If you're insulted by a family who has a higher income but who also lives in a higher cost of living area and still struggles to make ends meet, that sounds like your issue. Don't project it onto me.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 15, 17 9:40 AM
I don't doubt there are people or families who earn hundreds of thousands of dollars but live month-to-month, but that doesn't make them middle class, that makes them foolhardy spenders.

I'm not insulted by their existence, I'm insulted by the suggestion that they're middle class or the claim that they experience the same struggles that other, actual middle-class people, experience.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 15, 17 9:57 AM
"I'm not insulted by their existence"... you just called them foolhardy. You're entitled to your opinion even if it doesn't account for respective individual challenges.

I understand exactly where you're coming from and I'm not surprised by the reaction. People like to put labels on things whether it be "middle class" - because after all, who doesn't love the middle class, and class warfare, pitting one class against the other - because, who doesn't hate the rich. It's the age old haves ...more
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 15, 17 10:27 AM
I don't understand...you'd think the party of personal responsibility would be the first to point the finger at a family who can't make ends meet with an income of nearly half-a-million dollars. Or whose fault would it be, if not their own?

I don't hate the rich, I just doubt the majority of us would see a benefit from tax breaks aimed at people who earn $400K+ and I think a congressman who masquerades such tax breaks as "middle-class tax cuts" is lying to your face.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 15, 17 10:38 AM
"I don't understand" is the first and only thing we'll agree on.

How about medical bills as a reason that would push a family to not being able to make ends meet?

Keep the focus Fore, what was "masqueraded" was an internal closed door handout for a committee. There was no "lying to your face."
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 15, 17 10:54 AM
Assuming one has health insurance, there's a limit on out-of-pocket spending. That's called a "deductible" and I think around $15k is the highest I've seen in extreme cases where folks purposely lower their monthly premium as much as possible.

If that family doesn't have health insurance, then what in the world are they doing with their income???

If that family is struggling, then what chance do the rest of us have???
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 15, 17 11:01 AM
Oh, good, we're on to debate the particulars of health insurance and all the assumptions that could go into individual life circumstances. Sounds like a wonderful and productive discussion.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 15, 17 11:10 AM
Certainly not with sarcastic replies making up one side of the discussion.

No family currently earning $413,351 in this country, either through wages or passive income, is middle-class.

Should they lose that income via illness or disability, then it's a different story.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 15, 17 11:17 AM
Yeah, watch your tone mister, I knew exactly where you wanted to take the discussion when you asked, "Do you agree with that (a closed-door handout)?" It was no longer about policy, but personal.

I would agree with you that $413k based on traditional definition is not middle class, in general, but in the upper income tier. But, it is a complicated equation with geography, number of family members, outflow all a factor...and if you want to compare to other earners solely on income...well ...more
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 15, 17 12:46 PM
Ok, I can conceive of a situation where a family has SO many members their lifestyle with $413k in yearly income would be middle-class. According to the Pew Research center, in New York City that number is 22.

Back to the handout: does that make them "middle-income"? I don't think so.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 15, 17 2:09 PM
It's amazing what you can fathom when you get out the comfort zone and it took a Pew model to illustrate my point. Now add other factors outside of the control of households and it too is conceivable to play a factor. You made the same mistake as when you called out McConnell for saying ALL in the middle class would get a tax cut, only you said ALL who make 413K are not middle class.
Nov 15, 17 3:42 PM appended by Po Boy
Yes, back to the closed-door handout. It wasn't masqueraded nor was it lying to your face - it was for a closed-door Committee briefing. Have you ever done an FAQ or briefing where the information didn't flow right, or was done by a lower level staff member that didn't quite get it and during the briefing someone asks a question and it's correct after the briefing? Because it is such an overt misclassification, until it is used in some public official manner and combined with examples of how the plan DOES give most of the middle class a tax cut, I'm personally willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. Literally, if the 35% was moved one line over, it would have been completely accurate.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 15, 17 3:42 PM
You can view the memo however you want, but I'm going to stick with "families earning $413k are not middle income and to lower their tax rate is not a middle-class tax cut."

If a couple has four sets of quintuplets they can start a reality TV show. The Thanksgiving episode can be a full 11 on 11 football game, it'll be great.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 15, 17 4:25 PM
2 members liked this comment
"You can view the memo however you want"
I don't seek or need your permission

"I'm going to stick with "families earning $413k are not middle income and to lower their tax rate is not a middle-class tax cut."
You can view the memo however you want. And I agree.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 15, 17 9:16 PM
1 member liked this comment
Zeldin doesn't make enough to qualify for the deduction.
By johnj (687), Westhampton on Nov 14, 17 10:05 AM
Blue states subsidize red states -- not the other way around. That's a non-debatable fact. At any rate, Zeldon will be gone next November.
By btdt (409), water mill on Nov 14, 17 6:01 PM
1 member liked this comment
I heard this today, no state should get more in government dollars than they pay in. Wouldn't that keep the Teabag party happy?
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 15, 17 2:05 PM
That's not fair. It should fall on more prosperous states to ensure the people in less fortunate states have access to the same opportunity that is available to them, just like it should fall on wealthy people to ensure their less fortunate counterparts have their basic needs met.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 15, 17 2:11 PM
Communistes
By pw herman (704), southampton on Nov 15, 17 2:29 PM
Communism is the public ownership of all property so you probably mean socialism, which is the limited redistribution of wealth according to need, and woven into the fabric of American life in a plethora of ways including social security, unemployment, food stamps, public education, and tax credits.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 15, 17 4:41 PM
1 member liked this comment
They're too ignorant to know the difference.
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 15, 17 8:23 PM
1 member liked this comment
Another campaign promise bites the dust. L'll Donnie Johnny proclaiming himself the law and order President. Innocent people are getting slaughtered at a record pace all around our country. I guess his policies of unlimited guns and ammo for everybody really doesn't work. Too mentally ill to drive a car, but not to own a gun in Drumpf land. Time for an automatic weapon national registry. More stringent background checks, it's only common sense.
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 15, 17 7:45 PM
Home many times do we have to school liberals...

1) automatic weapons are ALREADY highly regulated by the ATF to include registry of who owns them and who will shoot them
2) Crime and murders are down. in other words, there is no correlation that more guns translate to more crime.
3) They aren't (only) the President's policies. They are Obama's, W's, Clinton as well.
4) "More stringent" background checks alludes that more stringent background checks aren't already done. They ...more
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 15, 17 9:14 PM
This conversation is tired.

There's nothing we can possibly do to stop people from being able to kill 50 people in an instant.

If it wasn't a gun it would have been a knife.

Mass murder is normal, let's all move on to real problems like this NFL players kneeling for the anthem.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 16, 17 6:03 AM
You’re tired. Your rap is tired, your fingers MUST be tired, in fact your reference to being foreign born is tired..just like Hampton Bays. Tired.
By SlimeAlive (627), Southampton on Nov 16, 17 6:43 AM
Hey slimy, thinking about it I am pretty tired, time to head back to bed. Enjoy your day! Thanks for not lying about Trump refusing donations from the NRA this time!
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 16, 17 6:49 AM
Fore1gnBornHBgrownneedstomovetoChicago
By pw herman (704), southampton on Nov 16, 17 8:27 AM
Why's that PW? Gun violence is a little wild in Chicago for me to live there. I think I'll stay in New York where I don't have to deal with a neighboring city that has much more lax gun policies like Gary, Indiana.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 16, 17 11:35 AM
1 member liked this comment
anyone who thinks mass murder is normal should have their head examined.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 16, 17 12:15 PM
Would you prefer "commonplace"? "Regular"? "Frequent"?

We've stopped calling for policy responses and are just collectively shrugging it off now, I would think you'd be happy.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 16, 17 2:57 PM
Let's face it. It doesn't matter what I prefer. You'll color it with what you "think" regardless.

Every day I wake up, I'm happy. You are correct.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 17, 17 10:28 AM
You got one thing right: I don't care what you prefer.

Mass murder is normal, deal with it.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 17, 17 2:55 PM
Oh, ok... so by default you then must think mass murders are normal.

There is nothing normal about mass murder or mass murders.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 19, 17 12:36 PM
Normal: (adj) usual, typical, or expected.

Seems spot on to me.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 19, 17 12:56 PM
You left out, "conforming to a standard" and the semi colon which is attached to the phrase following the word standard.

What standard is mass murder conforming to?

By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 20, 17 9:31 AM
Time to change policies, we already know mass murder doesn't bother you.
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 16, 17 5:42 AM
L'll Donnie Johnny was his usual gutless self when asked about Roy Moore. But I guess, what does one sex offender say to another. Do as I say, not as I do. Have you ever seen a bigger blowhard coward than the child-liar-in-chief? What a gutless coward, but we already knew that about the orange cheetoh.
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 16, 17 5:47 AM
Did that ridiculously childish outburst of hatred make you feel even a little better about your future?

Just last week you were taking over the world on the heels of someone I’ve already forgotten winning VA’s governor race. Reality set in, didn’t it?
By SlimeAlive (627), Southampton on Nov 16, 17 6:40 AM
still haven't come to grips that we have a PRESIDENT TRUMP have you Mets?
By bigfresh (2984), north sea on Nov 16, 17 6:42 AM
2 members liked this comment
I have a problem with a child who can't act like a man or act like a president. I don't understand how you don't take him to task after all that he promised and hasn't delivered. Isn't it great we have a pedophile running for the senate and he has no comment about it.
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 16, 17 8:51 AM
Your little experiment will be over soon. Along with it your misognism, xenophobia, white supremacist, divisiveness, lying, dishonest vision of America.After all is said and done, the tangerine toddler will go down as the worst president in American history. You supporting him confirms everything I've said about him, because those are the values you believe in.
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 16, 17 8:58 AM
Can someone give details about his trillion dollar infrastructure program? He was going to fix everything, so far a big, fat zero.
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 16, 17 9:00 AM
By the way bf and slime, he's your coward, not mine.
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 16, 17 9:09 AM
Metsy Wetsy
By pw herman (704), southampton on Nov 16, 17 10:58 AM
Bingo bingo bingo and bingo Mets fan.

But go easy on the blind Trumpeteers, as childish bullies generally cannot see a fellow fool, because of their own blinders.

Fiddle Fiddle Fiddle !!!

By Nero (233), Sag Harbor on Nov 16, 17 9:40 AM
1 member liked this comment
Go easy on them because the more you cast blame and call names, the more likely they are to reject criticism and double down.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 16, 17 9:50 AM
Trumpettes would support the orange cheetoh if he shot someone on Fifth Avenue or started nuclear war. The good news is that this is just a temporary experiment that will end soon and they can join the many fine people who protested in Charlottesville for the rest of their days,
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 16, 17 12:04 PM
Script Flips: Sitting Senator Caught in Act

Franken caught in Sex Assault on Sleeping Woman.

Franken has to resign from the Senate. This proves he is unfit for public office and should be forced to register as a sex offender. Leeann Tweeden, a journalist who anchors the morning news at TalkRadio 790 KABC in Los Angeles, California, is filing carges on Senator Al Franken (D-MN) of fondling her while asleep and shoving his tongue down her throat without her consent,and has pictures ...more
By 27dan (2120), Shinnecock Hills on Nov 16, 17 1:57 PM
It is wonderful watching the wheels come off the Roy Moore smear campaign while seeing that Al Franken is now exposed. Now let's see if pervert FrankenGroper is expelled.
Nov 16, 17 2:02 PM appended by Ditch Bum
Darrel Nelson, the stepson of Republican senatorial candidate Roy Moore accuser Beverly Young Nelson, claims that his stepmother’s accusations are “one hundred percent a lie.”“There is a lot of details that just does not add up,” he stated. “Do I believe that she is being paid? I have got a feeling that that is so.”
By Ditch Bum (314), Water Mill on Nov 16, 17 2:02 PM
Yes but the biggest media hoax ever is this sudden contrition over the shielding of Bill Clinton for 25 years against numerous allegations that ranged from sexual harassment to flat-out rape, and they know they can never run Biden because his touch feely episodes are quite recorded through the years! good knows what they would find if he ran for office!
By 27dan (2120), Shinnecock Hills on Nov 16, 17 2:10 PM

But it's all just locker-room talk, remember? Oh wait, you're not into football.
By johnj (687), Westhampton on Nov 16, 17 2:16 PM
2 members liked this comment
Was the woman underage?

Still gross of Franken, and if he faces a reckoning from his voters he deserves it, but let's not compare him to Roy "Shopping Mall" Moore.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 16, 17 2:17 PM
3 members liked this comment
We'll said
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 16, 17 4:47 PM
It seems the law can't cure pederasty, or pedophilia. You don't get banned from a mall because you're a victim of a "smear campaign".

Roy Moore is just another bible thumping self righteous hypocrite who drew over a million dollars out of his "charity" for himself and his family. Typical religious zealot hate spewing scumbag.

"You're just a child, I'm the district attorney. If you tell anyone about this no one will ever believe you."

~ Roy Moore to Beverly Young Nelson
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 16, 17 6:50 PM
I despise Al Franken but personally I say big deal ! She was a big girl she could handle herself. FrankenGroper and lewis CK are is a morons the end !

Clinton, Weiner and Weinstein on the other hand are proven predators and guilty at a whole different level
Nov 16, 17 7:11 PM appended by Ditch Bum
FrankenGroper and lewis CK are morons the end !
By Ditch Bum (314), Water Mill on Nov 16, 17 7:11 PM
Lol, looks like this tax bill is going to pass. Glad I make more than 75 grand!
By johnj (687), Westhampton on Nov 16, 17 3:44 PM
The Senate and House bills still differ substantially...it will probably go to conference and then it's anyone's game.
Nov 16, 17 3:51 PM appended by Fore1gnBornHBgrown
Though Paul Ryan's amendment to repeal the individual mandate with this deal might be a poison pill, if it makes it into the final Senate version.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 16, 17 3:51 PM
I will never support you again.You are a traitor to the Republican Party !
By bayview (147), Southampton on Nov 16, 17 5:42 PM
Why do you say that bay? Zeldin is putting his constituents first. I see nothing wrong with that? I also like the fact that the proposed tax reform bill is trying to throw some responsibility back on the states to get their affairs in order. Elimination of the SALT tax and elimination of the deductions for tax preparers fees will not help me but I do like many things in the bill. I'm just nervous of the cost. Dems love to add to the debt through social programs and repubs through tax cuts. None ...more
By razza5350 (1860), East Hampton on Nov 20, 17 10:40 AM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By bayview (147), Southampton on Nov 16, 17 5:47 PM
Lol, he voted against raising your taxes and the bill passed anyway, get a grip.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 16, 17 6:10 PM
Geez, I hope this is irony. He is sworn torepresent the people, not any political party.
By VOS (989), WHB on Nov 16, 17 6:57 PM
210,000 gallon Keystone leak. The experts said it would happen and it did. Let Drumpf suck it up with a straw. This is the moron you support.
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 16, 17 8:02 PM
1 member liked this comment
Officials don't believe the leak affected any surface water bodies or threatened any drinking water systems, said Brian Walsh, an environmental scientist manager at the South Dakota Department of Environment and Natural Resources, which has dispatched a staff member to the site.

"Ultimately, the cleanup responsibility lies with TransCanada, and they'll have to clean it up in compliance with our state regulations," Walsh said.
By SlimeAlive (627), Southampton on Nov 17, 17 6:48 AM
Would you live next to it?
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 18, 17 2:11 PM
It looks like Sen. Franken has come clean and apologized. Pres. Trump did far worse against far more women and lies about it. Moore is not only a liar but a pervert and likely pedophile. For those engaged in keeping tallies of the political persuasions of offenders, do some research about the homosexual child prostitution ring brought after hours to Poppy Bush's White House which made the June 29,1989 front page headline of the Washington Times. A story that got promptly shut down (there ...more
By June Bug (1412), SOUTHAMPTON on Nov 16, 17 8:48 PM
Fake news from the Washington Slimes all the way back in 1984, no surprise. So in your opinion JuneZ does Franken's apology make the crime go away?
By bigfresh (2984), north sea on Nov 17, 17 7:12 AM
Not fake news---covered up news. There are photos. Poppy is a known perv--had a mistress and is still being accused of a**grabbing from his wheelchair. This despite all the sickening canonization by his family and the MSM.
And no, Franken does not get a pass. He does get props for fessing up, and at least he doesn't go after children. I notice crickets from the Abuser-in-Chief re: pedophilia, but high dudgeon over behavior he has boastfully engaged in all of his life. That Mr.-Devoid-of-Authority ...more
By June Bug (1412), SOUTHAMPTON on Nov 17, 17 10:42 AM
Now Mr. bigfresh, let me ask you a question.
What say you about the following direct quote from the Access Hollywood tape being it describes what Franken has been charged with: “I’m automatically attracted to beautiful women — I just start kissing them, it’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.?
By June Bug (1412), SOUTHAMPTON on Nov 17, 17 11:39 AM
1 member liked this comment
Besides felony sexual assault, are there any other crimes you think wealthy democrat men should get skate for if they apologize?
By SlimeAlive (627), Southampton on Nov 19, 17 12:35 PM
Junezy , Mets, johnyj How you doin

good night
By They call me (2143), southampton on Nov 16, 17 10:25 PM
Watching libs on this site attempt to explain why they are angry at Zeldin is laughable. They would have been just as angry if he voted in favor of Trump's tax increase on the wealthy. In just 11 months Trump has exposed the left for the anti-American, anti-woman party of the rich elites they are....something we've known for eons.
By SlimeAlive (627), Southampton on Nov 17, 17 6:46 AM
2 members liked this comment
I read back the comments and this is the only one I can find complaining about Zeldin's vote:

"I will never support you again.You are a traitor to the Republican Party !"
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 17, 17 7:32 AM
"Tax INCREASE on the wealthy"? In what world are you living?
You're being royally screwed, and you like it? Makes sense I guess when you have a room temperature IQ.
By June Bug (1412), SOUTHAMPTON on Nov 17, 17 10:53 AM
Everything is exactly the opposite of how it is reported in the media. There is Shenanigans going on on both sides it's just the nature of men . Most of the time when it goes over the line it is on the left. Most Republicans have an element of decency built into them after the initial infraction. It is the Bill Clinton's of the world that we have seen go beyond the line. As far as this judge Moore thing is concerned.... we are talking about the 1970s here and Alabama to try and hold this man responsible ...more
By widow gavits (136), sag harbor on Nov 17, 17 7:25 AM
She was FOURTEEN
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 17, 17 7:29 AM
What was the legal age of consent with permission of a guardian in those years in the south ? I know in my home country it would be a pretty common this back then. Assuming the judge did what his accusers are trying to say he did, were there any laws broken ?
By Undocumented Democrat (1517), southampton on Nov 17, 17 10:03 AM
Common in the Old Testament.
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 17, 17 10:37 PM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By widow gavits (136), sag harbor on Nov 17, 17 7:25 AM
Meanwhile . . .

Muller keeps building his foundation -- brick by brick.

When his House of Interrogation is further along, the noose of guilt will occupy a special room upstairs. Its manila fibers will eventually start to prickle and irritate the neck of you-know-who.

And he will fidget, squirm, and keep denying things, as reality closes in.

His minions will have turned on him, in what will appear to be betrayal.

Such is the nature of fantastical dream ...more
By PBR (4813), Southampton on Nov 17, 17 7:49 AM
Do you have any idea the irony in your accusing others of living in a fantastical dream world of self-deception, after writing this, which can only be described as a fantastical dream world of self-deception?


"Muller keeps building his foundation -- brick by brick.

When his House of Interrogation is further along, the noose of guilt will occupy a special room upstairs. Its manila fibers will eventually start to prickle and irritate the neck of you-know-who.

And he ...more
By even flow (496), East Hampton on Nov 17, 17 7:56 AM
POTUS is okay with Manila.
By loading... (510), quiogue on Nov 17, 17 12:52 PM
Watergate took 27 months.

Food for thought...
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 19, 17 10:21 AM
Nixon couldn’t account for 8 mins and did not erase anything.
Hillary can’t account for 8 years and “you mean, with a cloth?”

You’re still talking about Nixon. Food for thought.
By SlimeAlive (627), Southampton on Nov 19, 17 12:33 PM
1 member liked this comment
will remind our leftist members here of this quote when the special prosecutor is set up for the PIAPS
By bigfresh (2984), north sea on Nov 19, 17 12:33 PM
1 member liked this comment
“you mean, with a cloth?” condescending POS deserves to go to jail for that alone!

By Ditch Bum (314), Water Mill on Nov 19, 17 1:43 PM
1 member liked this comment
No, it's actually a valid comparison to creating an airtight case.

There are some things you don't want to **** up.
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 19, 17 9:31 PM
Ballsy vote for Lee.
By Toma Noku (579), Southampton on Nov 17, 17 9:12 AM
Why? Isn't it what his constituents want?
By VOS (989), WHB on Nov 19, 17 12:18 PM
For widow gavits, google Wes Goodman from Ohio. Another family values blow-hard from your right wing of decent people.
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 17, 17 1:14 PM
Cancelled my cable today.

Cable wouldn’t bundle in stations without ESPN, so I guess only have internet for now.

Ratings continue to fall for the NFL’s games, the ratings for the various Sunday pregame shows on the broadcast networks have also cratered.
ESPN, has seen a decline in viewership for Sunday NFL Countdown of nearly 20 percent through the first nine weeks of the 2017 NFL season.

It is “the most significant drop of any of the networks,” ...more
By 27dan (2120), Shinnecock Hills on Nov 17, 17 2:45 PM
Thank God! At least you won't be able to watch Fox News. There's hope for you yet, Dan. You might as well cancel the Internet too. All the NFL games stream live on there.
By johnj (687), Westhampton on Nov 17, 17 2:50 PM
Congrats, cable-cutting is the hottest trend of 2014.
By Fore1gnBornHBgrown (546), HAMPTON BAYS on Nov 17, 17 2:56 PM
2 members liked this comment
Schweizer: ‘Very Inside Guy,’ Whistle-blower Coming Forward on Uranium One

Clinton is the Titanic, all the lifeboats have already felt the ship. She's sinking and doesn't want to believe it!
By They call me (2143), southampton on Nov 17, 17 4:36 PM
"The witness, a Florida businessman and former FBI informant named William Douglas Campbell, was considered so unreliable that prosecutors dropped him as a witness in an unrelated case involving Russian uranium sales, according to the sources."
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 19, 17 10:14 AM
RUSSELL SIMMONS SEX ASSAULT CLAIM as LAPD investigates nearly two dozen sex crime cases tied to Hollywood
by SAFIA SAMEE ALI and ANDREW BLANKSTEIN
Los Angeles police are investigating almost two dozen cases of alleged criminal sexual misconduct connected to multiple people within the entertainment industry, a senior department official told NBC News.
Nov 19, 17 12:24 PM appended by Undocumented Democrat
in an unrelated case
By Undocumented Democrat (1517), southampton on Nov 19, 17 12:24 PM

GOLDMAN SACHS: IT'S GOING TO BE A GREAT NEW YEAR...
Economy to roar in '18...

MEGA
By 27dan (2120), Shinnecock Hills on Nov 18, 17 11:28 PM
1 member liked this comment
So sad that Obama rejected Keystone Pipeline. Thousands of jobs, good for the environment, no downside! Guess what ignoramus tweeted that? Trusting our environment with this moronic clown. Explain to your grandchildren how you trusted Drumpf with our precious environment. Who would like to drink the water next to the oil spill or next to one of those unsealed pits filled with coal waste?
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 19, 17 10:04 AM
Get real will you ! The local aturitys are saying It was sabotaged by activist group, "The spill was completely isolated withing 15 minutes and emergency response procedures were activated. The saftey of the public and the environment were never in danger"

Eco terrorism
By Undocumented Democrat (1517), southampton on Nov 19, 17 12:35 PM
1 member liked this comment
You live next to it then! Or live in Carolina next to one of those coal waste pits.
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 20, 17 5:45 AM
The pipeline leak was underground. Some of it surfaced.

GOP = dumb as a box of hammers
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 20, 17 7:40 PM
Yeah, ecoterrorists if it was ecoterrorists aren't smart enough to get to pipeline 3-6 feet deep.

DEM=DUM
Nov 20, 17 9:55 PM appended by Po Boy
Coincidentally a neighboring state was to make a major pipeline decision next week. Hmmmm....
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 20, 17 9:55 PM
Herschel Walker: ‘I Absolutely Think the Protests Are Disgusting, I Blame the Commissioner , he should have stopped the protests from the very beginning.”

Walker is one of the greats from a time when the NFL was about football ! Remember not to watch a single game today ! Keep the pressure on the National Felons League. The sponsors are leaving and the people are winning!

STAND!
By 27dan (2120), Shinnecock Hills on Nov 19, 17 12:13 PM
I was just reading that President Trump’s approval ratings, often mocked by the media, top those of Europe’s biggest three leaders, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Britain’s Theresa May and French President Emmanuel Macron.

A new Zogby Analytics survey of people in those countries finds that the disapproval ratings for those leaders are much worse than that of President Trump.

Nice job Mr. Trump
Nov 19, 17 1:32 PM appended by joe hampton
This poll comes on the heels of a new Quinnipiac University National Poll that said most of the country remains angry and divided over, the media’s treatment of President Trump and his administration, it found that 58 percent “disapprove” of the coverage. Going on to say the American voters disapprove 58 - 38 percent of the way the media covers Trump and feel that the media “focuses too much” on any negative stories they can find.
By joe hampton (2906), The Hamptons on Nov 19, 17 1:32 PM
1 member liked this comment
DRAIN THE SWAMP !
By Ditch Bum (314), Water Mill on Nov 19, 17 1:41 PM
"It is not goodness to be better than the worst"

~ Seneca
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 19, 17 9:27 PM
A Reminder That America Is Incredibly Corrupt and Only Getting Worse

A mistrial in a major case against a sitting US Senator is just the latest reason to despair about unlimited shady behavior by powerful politicians.

ByErin Schwartz
llustrated byLia Kantrowitz
Nov 17 2017, 3:00pm
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 19, 17 9:36 PM
What's negative about covering a loser. Did you get your new red hat, "The buck never stops here."
By Mets fan (865), Southampton on Nov 20, 17 5:48 AM
U.S. Growth Forecasts Are on the Rise.

THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, By Chelsey Dulaney
Nov 20, 2017 8:47 am ET

Don’t look now, but U.S. growth forecasts are moving higher. That’s helping to support U.S. stocks.

Projections for U.S. economic growth from two Federal Reserve banks have risen in recent weeks. The Federal Reserve Bank of New York on Friday forecast that gross domestic product will rise 3.8% in the fourth quarter, up from a forecast of 3.2% a week ...more
By joe hampton (2906), The Hamptons on Nov 20, 17 9:45 AM
KATHY GRFFIN BLACKLISTED: I HAVE NO GIGS IN USA!

Perfect
By 27dan (2120), Shinnecock Hills on Nov 19, 17 8:07 PM
karma's a bitch and so is kathy griffin.
By Erin 27 E (881), hampton bays on Nov 19, 17 8:12 PM
"A bad man, when he pretends to be a good man, is the worst man of all."

~ Publilius Syrus
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 19, 17 9:28 PM
ESPNers trying to escape sinking ship...In the next few weeks, ESPN is expected to undergo another round of massive layoffs, Sporting News cites 40-60 layoffs coming,

NICE Go try MSNBC Liberal social justice commentary is what you have experience doing anyway !
By 27dan (2120), Shinnecock Hills on Nov 20, 17 4:28 PM
Ivanka’s signature real estate deals were disasters linked to drug cartels and money laundering

The president’s daughter has been at the center of a pair of the presidential projects tied most closely to grand corruption.

CASEY MICHEL
NOV 18, 2017, 4:47 PM


"...a Reuters investigation also found that Alexandre Henrique Ventura Nogueira, the building’s primary broker, admitted that he offered money laundering among his services. “When I was ...more
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 20, 17 7:46 PM
OMG.....they had a meeting. The horror.

Meanwhile, the typical Democratic modus operandi is in full swing... accuse Republicans of what Democrats are guilty of. We're seeing full well what the War on Women was all about.
Nov 20, 17 8:45 PM appended by Po Boy
The only thing less surprising from Think Progress is you gulping it down and vomiting it back up.
By Po Boy (455), Water Mill on Nov 20, 17 8:45 PM
Loser. Sad, can't see glaring red flag...


Make Nepotism Great Again: 20 Families Got Jobs in Trump Administration

Rudy Giuliani’s son, Seb Gorka’s wife, Eric Trump’s brother-in-law. Multiple members of the same families hold positions of power.

LACHLAN MARKAY
11.20.17 5:00 AM ET


A Daily Beast examination of public records reveals that there are at least 20 families, joined by either blood or marriage, in which multiple members ...more
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 20, 17 10:41 PM
GOP Surrenders Cherished IRS Scandal at Last

The fiction served the GOP for years, yet died quietly this month, forsaken and alone.

By Francis Wilkinson
November 20, 2017, 9:00 AM EST


Republicans claimed the IRS served as an attack dog for the Obama White House. But inquiries by the House Ways and Means Committee, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, the Senate Finance Committee, the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations and the Justice ...more
By Mr. Z (9462), North Sea on Nov 20, 17 10:49 PM
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