Nov 28, 2012 10:07 AM
In a series of sweeping, last-minute changes, the Southampton Town Board cut $350,000 in spending from Supervisor Anna Throne-Holst’s original proposed spending plan last week prior to adopting a $82.45 million budget for 2013.
The amended plan, which was adopted on November 20, also added funding for two new police officers and a full-time traffic control officer to the town’s short-handed police department. The savings and new police jobs came with a price tag—namely, the cutting of two positions funded in the supervisor’s original budget and the $260,000 in salaries and benefits those employees would have earned. The amendments also cut another $150,000 by eliminating an initial spending proposal to create two new positions at Town Hall.
Despite the savings, the final approved budget of $82.45 million does not change the proposed... more
The amended plan, which was adopted on November 20, also added funding for two new police officers and a full-time traffic control officer to the town’s short-handed police department. The savings and new police jobs came with a price tag—namely, the cutting of two positions funded in the supervisor’s original budget and the $260,000 in salaries and benefits those employees would have earned. The amendments also cut another $150,000 by eliminating an initial spending proposal to create two new positions at Town Hall.
Despite the savings, the final approved budget of $82.45 million does not change the proposed... more
Check the great editorial this week in the Press about "the rudderless nature of the town and its police department."
The next election is not that far away, thankfully.
This country is still running like a banana republic, with contributions, and payoffs even in small town politics like Southampton. I understand there are lots of you that think your Dems will change the world or your Republicans will come to the rescue. It's not the case when we have politicians who do what they want in the pursuit of money, and favors. Do we all have to hit rock bottom to realize how destructive this behavior is? By the way did you see the 39k for benefits of each officer? Most people in this country make less than 38k working 52 weeks a year! Anna you are just kicking the can down the road like our past supervisors did.
Chief1, you speak of ATH "spending 3 million" on "a 20 million dollar project." That's about how I recall the ratio between the small portion the Town was to spend and the large balance ($17 million by your figures) being picked up by the affected oceanfront property owners, including Stillman, through a special taxing district. This was to reflect the ...more ratio between the small amount of Town-owned frontage and the large amount of privately owned frontage in the project area.
I'm one of those who believes beach renourishment is unwise because of the need for repeated applications of sand, but many favor it as a non-structural solution. The point here is that if you're going to pursue this option, it's not favoritism or political payback when you're employing a funding-to-frontage ratio that's basically fair.
Your suggestion of impropriety on ATH's part on account of the Stillman donation is a wholly unwarranted leap, chief1. If this thing goes forward, Stillman will pay his fair share of the cost, like all the other oceanfront owners.
NTiger's case is a lot simpler. You, N, have just alleged "a real pattern" of "pay to play" without stating a single fact to support the accusation, saying only that you've "referred to the specifics in earlier posts." If you believe that anyone, in this or any other universe, has the interest or the patience to wade through your prolix, redundant and pretentious "earlier posts" to discover "the specifics," you're deluded.
Rather than go through that pointless exercise, I'll just pick one canard that was popular during the last Town cycle -- that the PBA supported ATH, so ATH picked the PBA's choice for police chief. I imagine you jumped on that bandwagon along with others, NTiger. As a lawyer, you know there's not a scrap of proof to establish a causal connection between those two events. You also know there were independent arguments for appointing Wilson -- remember, we're talking about the beginning of the brief Wilson tenure, not its middle or end -- so the payback scenario has no legs whatever.
Bottom line, NTiger, you've indulged in character assassination against Anna Throne-Holst without any claimed basis, sort of like spray-painting anti-ethnic graffiti. Even chief1 did better than that.
Mr. Wheeler, you're normally too fair and discriminating to "like" a comment on this level. Not your usual standard.
Am I alone in feeling that ...more no more money should go to this organization until its moral suitability as a LAW enforcer is ascertained?
The Town Council having clamped an airtight lid of secrecy on matters pertaining to the p.d., we are left to try to understand what really happened (and is happening) therein by phenomena that go unexplained (the resignation, the reinstatement) and by individual councilpersons derriere-covering apologias.
Since this has been a nonpartisan cabal, with Republican, Democratic, Conservative and Independence councilpersons all joining hands to conceal malfeasance that went on under their watches, they all deserve the same nonpartisan fate when they next stand for office. There is, however, an ever narrowing window for one or more of them to break ranks with his colleagues and honer his obligation to keep residents informed before legal procedures that are not under their control make the scandal public knowledge.
The clock is ticking.
Who will devote time to that job in the future? Or will the Town not seek grants?
And you apply when you take the civil service test - as long as you meet the requirements. Cop jobs aren't patronage jobs... score the highest on the test and ...more pass basic training and you too can risk your life and work midnight shifts for years until eventually earning over $100k.
According to the Town Police Payroll chart, starting officers receive $99,267 annually in salary and benefits. So they're at $$100K in year one. In four years, they'll be at $137,600. In ten, they can break $$200K, all before overtime ($$850K + last year) is added in.
For this munificent salary, they hand out traffic (& illegal swimming) citations, bust drunk drivers, and intimidate the Town Council which emulates the "Three Wise Monkeys" in its oversight of the department.
You cannot equate benefits with salary - the person is not taking home $100k in the first year and we all know this. But you like to add the numbers together to make it sound ridiculous...
And they do a lot more than hand out traffic tickets, but again you want to ignore that. Who do you think was working during the hurricane and was called upon to rescue people too foolish to leave their homes? Who puts their lives at risk ...more for the well being of the community? Have we not seen several police officers killed in the line of duty in both counties in recent years?
Oh, and as for the illegal swimming which you refer to - it was in the inlet after these dummies chose to go to a sandbar and get sandblasted (in the dark) with no reliable way home. If you don't ticket idiots for these things, then first responders have to further risk their lives saving them when they "get in over their heads" (pardon the pun)
Perhaps the once-in-a-blue-moon emergencies in which the STPD must participate should be factored into their compensation, but it still doesn't approach being worth $$100K/yr.
Before an STPD cop was "menaced" by a disturbed individual carrying a knife earlier this year, their most recent "life-threatening" event involved one of their ...more members being "menaced" by man carrying a can of Colt 45. I cannot recall one ever being injured other than by crashing his car, pulling a muscle, or having a cardiac event due to poor dietary habits.
In the swimming event, more than half a dozen different agencies, including other law enforcement departments, worked in unison to rescue a group of individuals from a sandbar in Shinnecock Bay. The STPD, ALONE, handed out tickets. To refresh your memory, those swimmers were trying to get off the sandbar on their own. They weren't having a lark.
Finally, the STPD is currently under investigation for corruption of unknown dimensions. Should we really be giving any more money or personnel to a force before a conclusion is reached and it has been purged?
You persist in posting misleading, incorrect information about the STPD an then take umbrage when your duplicity is revealed.
Yes, $100k is the cost to the Town for the first year - but it's not the same as the employee EARNING $100,000/year. And I'd be willing to bet that at least 1/3 of Town Hall "costs" the Town $100k/year and they aren't ...more putting their lives on the line.
You belittle the Police Department by saying they are "menaced" by people with cans of colt 45. So the officer tasked with arresting the man who recently stabbed his brother faced no danger during the arrest? So anytime there is a report of "shots fired" there is no inherent danger/risk involved for the officers who respond? So being on the roads at night attempting to get drunks off the road isn't worth $25/hr for you?
Please don't bother responding if you wont' answer these questions:
1. How many did YOU personally pay for Police service as per your latest tax bill?
2. What is a "fair rate" for police officers to be paid in the Town of Southampton? How would you arrive at this level of compensation?
You have previously admitted that you are anti-police in part because you had a bad experience with them umpteen years ago and you cannot let go of that bias. The fools who swam into the channel were too bombed to care about the first responders tasked with plucking them from the water. They were given a ticket and rightfully so - you act as though they were put in jail and held for months on end.
And do you honestly not believe there is ANY correlation between our relatively low crime rate (especially with respect to violent crimes) and our police force? Perhaps it is BECAUSE of our police force, their presence in our communities and hard work that we have a low crime rate. Nah.. it's probably just a coincidence, in which case we should fire them all, right? Let's instute a volly service... oh wait, that would cost more, like the Fire Department.
Can you please hangup your high hat?
Even if they are working 190 days/year (back that up with facts please) their shifts aren't glamorous. Night shifts, double shifts, working in inclement weather (like hurricanes and blizzards), dealing with drunk drivers ...more and people off their medications etc. I'm more than willing to pay them their $25-50/hour.
An update on the status of this case would be appreciated.
Does the suspect's employer (and owner of the hit-and-run vehicle) have any relationship with any members of the Town Board, including the Supervisor?
"Chief Wilson said this week that the decision to withhold that information was a joint decision by multiple agencies—one he supported."
Note "joint decision" . . . "he supported."
As the highest SHT person in this decision-making process, he owes the public an explanation at this point about the reasons for withholding the photo and ID for 11 days IMO, and what went wrong in the pursuit of the suspect.
Did ...more Chief Wilson receive any requests/pressure from any governmental official to delay the release of information which, in hindsight now, might have brought the suspect to justice more quickly? Or, rather, at all!
ALL the authorities should update us on the status of this case. Have there been any leads? Where is the suspect likely located, or possibly hiding? Etc. Etc..
Chief Wilson reportedly said:
"Releasing the name and photo sooner would have made the suspect leave more quickly, . . . "
What was the factual basis for his conclusion?
In hindsight, how wrong-headed WAS this decision?
From the 7/19/12 article:
"“We will follow the trail on this guy until the end of time,” Southampton Town Police Chief William Wilson Jr. said. “We’re never going to stop going after him.”
December 9th will mark the fifth month of the investigation, not exactly "the end of time" perhaps, but maybe a good time for an update before this failed investigation sours the holiday spirit?
Quote: "You have previously admitted that you are anti-police in part because you had a bad experience with them umpteen years ago and you cannot let go of that bias."
You really HAVE lost all connection to reality where your apologies for the STPD are concerned. This most recent response of yours lies thrice-over.
1) I am NOT anti-police and NEVER have so admitted.
2) I have NEVER had a bad experience with the police that involved more than being pulled ...more over without probable cause on specious grounds. That's makes me an average driver. Moreover, I have never even undergone that experience with the STPD.
3) My criticism of the STPD is based on their pervasively substandard performance (now including investigation of corruption), their grossly unprofessional conduct, and their stupendous salaries, rather than any personal "bias."
As for misleading and incorrect, your assertion that new cops make $20/hr. when it's really more like $60/ hr. falls under that description.
Ditto your supposition that 1/3 of town hall employees make $$100K/yr (just like 1st year cops) since that would include professionals with thirty years of service. What fraction of 1ST YEAR employees of Town Hall do your suppose make $$100K like 1st year cops.
Then there is your exquisitely STPD-cop-groupie perspective on the STPD's ticketing of a couple of swimmers who were trying to rescue themselves from a sandbar. Odd that no other law enforcement agency thereat with citation powers chose to write them up. They were too busy RESCUING PEOPLE. The STPD's notorious penchant for writing paper just kicked in instinctively.
Why do we have a low crime rate? Because we are a largely middle class / affluent community geographically distant from cheap housing that criminals can afford or that will accommodate them.. It has nothing to do with the STPD (Thank god!)
The STPD has been the shame and joke of Southampton Town for decades. We should reform the department before we consider further empowering it.
"Many years ago, when I was very, very, VERY young, I was stopped in RIverhead for making a left hand turn on a red light. It was actually yellow and I was determined to fight it. I did some research and found that, at that time, case law required that the cop citing you had to be able to see the light that YOU saw. He couldn't park in such a was as to see the light for cross-traffic and deduce that if it was green for him, then it was red ...more for you. Since that was precisely what he had done, I arrived at court confident in my IN PRO SE defense and called the cop to the stand, prepared to demolish him with my citation of authority. After asking him to identify himself I proceeded, in my best Perry Mason style, to ask, "Isn't it true, Officer Dobbins, that from where you were sitting in your patrol car, you couldn't see the light that I approached, but only the light for cross-traffic at a 90 degree angle to that one." "I could see them both.", he answered promptly. I was stunned, and another childhood illusion perished. Cops lied! They committed perjury about really stupid stuff (because life was too short[?].) As I left the court house with a few additional points on my license, I wondered if I should have demanded that the court recess and reconvene at the scene of the crime so that I could demonstrate the cop's duplicity."
That statement (in the wee hours of the morning) is clearly an example of your displeasure toward police departments (note how I never accused you of having a run-in with the SHPD, only police in general). You are convinced that cops are bad people because you CLAIM one lied many many years ago. Talk about painting with a broad brush...
Where did you get the figure of $60/hr for police? I stated a rookie cop makes $20/hr (not including benefits) based on a 40 hour work week and 52 weeks in a year. How is that inaccurate?
The reason no one else ticketed these juvenile delinquents (using the term loosely) is because the violation was that of Southampton Town Code. It shouldn't come as a shock to you that the Coast Guard/State Police/Sheriffs Dept. etc cannot write tickets under Town Code. They were issued tickets and went before a Judge who could throw it out if he so chose.
I suppose that 1/3 of starting salaries in the Town of Southampton offer a BASE salary of $54,000 (plus benefits). I could be off by some - but not much, and these are positions that do not require taking a bullet or running into a burning building or donning SWAT to breakup a drug ring.
I'm not going to waste my time responding to you anymore if you refuse to answer simple questions.
1. How much did you pay in SHPD taxes vs. FD and EMT taxes? (I'm wondering if there are ulterior motives for your lack of response or if you hate it when I'm right)
2. What do you think is a far salary, and why?
Maybe if you takeoff that high hat - you'll pull some answers out of it.
In my letter file I have two thank-you letters from a precinct captain and the Chief of Police of a major American city that I visited a few years ago. I had written the precinct captain to congratulate him on the exemplary performance that I had observed of several officers under his command. I mention this as refutation of your charge that HATE the police. I do wonder, however, whether I would have written the letter had I not been startled by seeing real, professional cops ...more at work after years of exposure to the deplorable STPD.
I arrived at the figure of $60/hr. by correcting the $$42K/yr. that you used to the $$100K/yr that first year STPD cops actually receive, and adding in their share of the $$850K in annual overtime pay. That, as well as the fact that cops don't work anywhere near the 52x40 hr. weeks/yr. which you used in your estimate, puts them over $60/hr.
The Coast Guard, The Suffolk County Police, and the Southampton Town Bay Constables all took part in the sandbar rescue and ALL had jurisdiction at the scene but NONE chose to cite any of the VICTIMS - - - only the STPD did that.
I think an appropriate salary for the STPD would be one that tops out at around $$75K/yr. for patrolmen and starts at the lowest figure at which qualified applicants will be attracted to the job. The chief would be the highest paid at no more than $$120K/yr. & the captain $$110K. The intervening ranks and detectives would rise no higher than $$90K. Retirement and health insurance benefits would would be the same as those enjoyed by other Town employees. I know that these salary figures are substantially higher than those needed to acquire competent officers, and higher, as well, than those most Town employees receive but the possibility of exposure to danger on the job (however remote) must be considered.
Needless to say, I would only pay these sums to members of a reformed, PROFESSIONAL department.
I decline your presumptuous demand that I reveal my tax data.
to khan:
Oh, no, I'm a schizophrenic!
Cops do receive the same benefits as the white collar members of the union - you think those pushing papers in Town Hall aren't receiving "stupendous" amounts of benefits? Only difference is they get to retire earlier - but aren't YOU the one who always whines that cops DON'T retire early enough? I seem to remember you harping ...more on the fact that cops are working "past their due dates" so to speak. So which is it HH? Even if a cop doesn't work 52X40 he uses vacation/sick/personal to qualify for that amount of time - same as any other government employee. There's a requirement for number of hours worked AND if you are making the argument that they use copious amounts of OT, then actually they would work singificant more than the 52X40 wouldn't they?
Thanks for FINALLY giving me a figure for what you think is fair compensation - but do you also expect 0 OT to be given? We all know this is impossible, especially in the wake of unforseen events like the Hurricane.
As for your quote: The Coast Guard, The Suffolk County Police, and the Southampton Town Bay Constables all took part in the sandbar rescue and ALL had jurisdiction at the scene but NONE chose to cite any of the VICTIMS - - - only the STPD did that.
The only thing these people were victims of was their own stupidity. They were drinking on a sandbar with a rising tide and setting sun with NO verifiable way home. What did you expect was going to happen? Clearly you have bias with regard to this situation - it's a no brainer that what those kids did was dumb. And i'll reiterate that the other first responders CANNOT cite somoene for a violation of TOWN code. The Coast Guard can't write you a ticket for not picking up your dog waste - why would they be able to write you a ticket for swimming a channel if it's only a Town law?
Your continued denail to reveal taxation data tells me a number of things.
A) You know I'm right
B) You are afraid revealing taxation data will result in people having an idea of how much your home is worth (or some convoluted argument of that nature)
HHS - it is amazing how you are so willing to talk out of both sides of your mouth - as if my ears aren't capable of hearing it all. You are OUTRAGED at police pay - but never ever complain about all the other ridiculous patronage jobs/pay scales out there. You have made so many comments on this article alone - and never once made a statement with respect to Ms. Eisenberg and her absurd arraingment with the Town which is finally being taken care of.
Hmm... if the accusation that you are Mr. Kabot (or at least closely tied thereto) is true - perhaps it's because Linda was the one who brought Freda onboard... You're not one to bite the hands that feed huh HH?
Peace out - I'm done wasting my time with you when you simply refuse to provide basic information because you are fearful it will prove my point that you cannot argue that police pay is out of control unless you also complain that EMT and Fire Dept. taxes are also out of whack and need serious reform. Let's reform the whole system - not put a patch on it.
Quote: "And i'll reiterate that the other first responders CANNOT cite somoene for a violation of TOWN code. The Coast Guard can't write you a ticket for not picking up your dog waste - why would they be able to write you a ticket for swimming a channel if it's only a Town law?"
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and accuse you of disingenuousness. The Coast Guard, the Suffolk Country Police and the Bay Constable all have their own "codes" and statutory authority ...more to cite violators. Of course they wouldn't reference the "Town" code.
Quote: "HH - the $42k figure is for traffic safety - not starting police officers ... "
Sorry - - - and how does this misunderstanding change the fact that starting police officers actually make $60/hr.
Your relentless apologias for the STPD are refuted by their well-publicized misdeeds and malfeasance. When the final report of the corruption probe is released, we will see for the first time just how deep the rot has set.
Until then, there's is no sense in financially rewarding misbehavior and no sense in infecting new hires with the illness of a sick department rather than waiting until it is cured.
However HHH has a point re the escalating salaries of our town and county departments which have historically been the highest paid in the nation. This is a result of contract negs between Nassau and Suff counties ...more and their depts, during which the countys matched raises given by the adjoining county, resulting in a leapfrog effect of escalating compensation and benefits.
Its time to end this escalation and stabilize police salaries, as well as bringing their benefit package more in line with other civil service workers, ie paying into health care costs.
a) they work an extremely dangerous job (even in the bucolic hamptons) which should allow them increased compensation over their desk jockey counterparts in local government
b) the impact on one's tax bill is so minimal for the services that are ...more rendered that it's silly to constantly harp on their pay. When compared to VOLUNTEER services, police pay is an absolute steal (pardon the terrible pun). That doesn't mean that what they get paid is "fair" or "just" but it means that cutting payroll in half (which is absurd) would go unnoticed on one's tax bill and I continue to argue that if you do not like what they are paid, put fourth a viable solution
Again, I am not denigrating this department or its officers, however as a taxpayer working two jobs struggling to put food on my table I can no longer condone a small town police force ...more in an area with an extremely low crime rate which is among the highest paid in the nation.
So- I slid the shield and got 69K, you slid it and got 92K- hmm . Must be something wrong with my computer.