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Westhampton Beach Eruv Proposal Moves Forward

Publication: The Southampton Press
By Will James   Oct 27, 2010 1:48 PM

A non-profit organization has cleared two major hurdles on the path to establishing a symbolic Jewish religious boundary, known as an eruv, that would encompass Westhampton Beach Village and the hamlet of Quiogue, the head of the organization said on Wednesday.

Marvin Tenzer, the Westhampton Beach resident who heads the East End Eruv Association, said he received word from Verizon on Tuesday evening that the company intends to allow his organization to attach markings, known as “lechis,” to utility poles in order to delineate an eruv that would encompass Westhampton Beach and Quiogue, and also include parts of Quogue and Westhampton. The Long Island Power Authority, which owns other utility poles in the area, agreed to allow the organization to mark its poles this summer but is currently reviewing that agreement, according to a spokeswoman.

The eruv is a symbolic enclosure; the lechis replace walls in public places. The religious boundary, if created, would allow Orthodox Jews to carry and push objects on the Sabbath, activities that are normally prohibited out of doors on their day of rest.

All that’s left in the process of establishing it, Mr. Tenzer said, is final licenses from both utility companies.

“We don’t have the license yet from Verizon, we haven’t heard from LIPA, so the time horizon ... is still up in the air,” he said regarding when the boundary would be established.

But Westhampton Beach Village Mayor Conrad Teller disagrees with that assessment, stating that his municipality must still sign off on the proposed religious boundary for it to become a reality. “We will be speaking with our attorney,” said Mr. Teller, adding that, as of Wednesday morning, he was not aware of the letter from Verizon or the agreement with LIPA.

To date, the village has not received an application from the East End Eruv Association, and Mr. Tenzer said on Wednesday that his organization has no intention of filing one in the village, even though the Jewish religious law typically requires a government proclamation in order to establish an eruv. Mr. Tenzer said he wasn’t yet sure where his organization would seek government approval; eruv opponents have speculated that the association could apply with Southampton Town, Suffolk County, New York State or some other authority, effectively bypassing Westhampton Beach Village.

“At the moment there is no plan,” he said. “How we’re going to proceed is up in the air.”

The prospect of an eruv has been a touchy issue in Westhampton Beach in recent years. Some residents rallied against a 2008 proposal by the Hampton Synagogue to establish an eruv inside the village, causing the synagogue to retract its proposal that same year.

Opposition ignited again late this summer, when news of a renewed push by the East End Eruv Association became public. Mr. Tenzer has said that the new proposal, which encompasses a larger area than the 2008 proposal, has nothing to do with the Hampton Synagogue, even though he belongs to the house of worship.

Opponents of the eruv, many of whom have rallied around a group called Jewish People Opposed to the Eruv, have cited concerns over the government’s involvement in religious affairs, property values and the prospect of a surge of Orthodox Jews moving into the area. Proponents of the eruv have said the boundary would have no effect on most residents, and would primarily allow Orthodox Jews in the area to push strollers and wheelchairs and to carry items like keys to temple on the Sabbath.

Mr. Tenzer said the tentative approvals by Verizon and LIPA represent the final validations he needs to establish the eruv. He said Verizon indicated it would approve the request after attorneys for East End Eruv Association told Verizon that preventing the eruv would violate federal civil rights law.

In the past, Verizon has taken the position that it would hold off on approving the eruv until East End Eruv Association received approvals from local municipalities. But Mr. Tenzer said his attorneys told Verizon that the villages do not have the legal authority to approve or reject such applications.

Westhampton Beach Village officials have taken the position that an eruv would, by law, require village approval. Previously, all five members of the Village Board have said they would reject an eruv proposal. Quogue Village Mayor Peter Sartorius, meanwhile, sent letters to Verizon and LIPA attorneys in September stating that non-utility attachments to utility poles are not allowed under village law.

Mr. Tenzer, a partner in the Manhattan law firm Tenzer and Lunin LLP, dismissed those positions as having no legal basis. “There’s no question that there’s no requirement that we go back to the villages for any approval, and to the extent that the villages—we’re not asking the villages for anything at this point other than they not violate the law,” he said.

Verizon sent a letter to Quogue officials on Tuesday, stating that the utility company would allow the eruv markings, according to Mr. Tenzer. On Wednesday morning, Mr. Sartorius said he had not received the letter, and declined to comment.

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Can't get in the front door? Try the back door. Smart move EEEA.
By nellie (446), sag harbor on Oct 27, 10 5:52 PM
so can i put up symbols of my religion all over the village also?
By Hamptons777 (8), East Quogue on Oct 28, 10 9:14 AM
1 member liked this comment
what an irrational response.
By peoplefirst (787), Southampton on Oct 28, 10 12:02 PM
No it is not
What about Sharia law and wearing Burka? This is nothing I chose for myself, why should I be subject to someone else's beliefs? Stop all the personal nonsense! My religion is not your religion.... You practice your faith in your household...don't put it on my street....
By hmptnlocal (47), Hampton Bays on Oct 28, 10 4:00 PM
1 member liked this comment
Apparently you can. Have a blast.
By double standard (1288), quogue on Oct 29, 10 8:27 AM
hmptonlocal, what does this article have to do with Sharia law? They are talking about putting a small insignia on a phone poll that you would not have even noticed if not pointed out to you and you automatically equate this with Sharia law and wearing Burkas?! Are you kidding? If you are so concerned about religious freedom, you practice your faith and I practice mine, then start by not worrying about what others do.
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Oct 29, 10 8:41 AM
Chosen people, enough said.
By ICE (1195), Southampton on Oct 28, 10 12:13 PM
CHOSEN BY WHO????
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 2, 10 10:20 AM
What ever happened to separation of church and state?
The government went as far as taking the Pledge of Allegiance out of schools...which is a shame
Why should this be allowed??
By hmptnlocal (47), Hampton Bays on Oct 28, 10 1:41 PM
The government took the pledge out of schools? When did this happen? Guess what, it didn't. I cannot understand people like you who mislead and lie to make a point. This has nothing to do with separation of church and state and everything to do with religious tolerance.
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Oct 29, 10 8:43 AM
If they can put up symbols on the utility poles, I imagine LIPA and Verizon are permitting everyone to do the same. This could get interesting.
By BM (10), Southampton on Oct 28, 10 4:36 PM
1 member liked this comment
The reason this is a problem is its divisive nature, with places like Penn Wynne PA, Teaneck NJ, and Lawrence NY in Nassau County as stark examples of what eruvs have wrought. Installation of eruvs is followed by a major publicity push to Orthodox Jews, then a major population shift.

Just as I would object to Baptist tent rallies held on the land across from the Westhampton Country Club (happens in Ocean City NJ every summer), I object to eruvs as pernicious religious balkanization. Rabbi ...more
By colonelshousealum (11), westhampton beach on Oct 28, 10 4:37 PM
2 members liked this comment
This blatant anti-Orthodox bias doesn’t deserve a response. However, I would just like to point out that all these towns that you mention were all predominately Orthodox prior to the establishment of the eruv. In any case, this town will never become an Orthodox bastion for many reasons.
By davidsline (70), new york on Oct 28, 10 11:12 PM
1 member liked this comment
I grew up in OCNJ (34th and Asbury) and later on 27th. The baptist tent has been an annual event but not a permanent fixture. Additionally, OCNJ was specifically founded as a religious haven (see Blue Laws...and it is still a dry town).

I really don't care about the eruv...do you really think anyone will be pushing a stroller from Quogue? I think though the Rabbi is a very disingenuous person...and I am being kind.
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 2, 10 12:15 PM
What is going to protect us from Sharia if we open this door?
By hmptnlocal (47), Hampton Bays on Oct 28, 10 4:47 PM
You know hmptnlocal, if you were honest like the colonel above and admit that you don't want to see the population shift that may come with eruv, you may be taken more seriously, or if you want to argue like highhat that the synagogue should make up for their building violations, that I would understand. But your argument that compares the small symbols on utility poles to being forced to follow Sharia law is really ignorant. You wouldn't even know the symbols were there if there wasn't any publicity ...more
By Academics (14), Southampton on Oct 28, 10 10:24 PM
2 members liked this comment
No discussion of an eruv until Rabbi Schneier's illegal "Rabbi's House" is demolished and replaced by parking to make the Hampton Synagogue closer to conforming with zoning requirements.
By highhatsize (2123), East Quogue on Oct 28, 10 5:55 PM
Ever hear of separation of church and state? Gov can't regulate religious places of worship and a Rabbi's house falls under that category since they hold services in those places.

....and you seem so intelligent,....at times anyway.
By BIGjimbo12 (201), East Quogue on Oct 29, 10 7:36 AM
What?

Doesn't matter who or what you are, you still must conform to local codes! Do you think a Church could covert to a casino? Orphanage? Prison?

I think not
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 2, 10 12:17 PM
hmptnlocal, you are right on the money. except these days, sharia law is cool and hip. but it won't be so cool and hip when its here. muslims are currently arguing in supreme court that the full body scanners at the airport that are used to take pornographic pictures of us -that are saved and gawked at by airport employees- violate muslim laws of privacy.

By mackt (73), montauk on Oct 29, 10 6:49 AM
3 members liked this comment
Of course the most bigoted, closed-minded buffoon on these boards comes out in support of hmptonlocal's intolerant nonsense. I know this post will be removed, but I don't care. Folks like mackt and hmptnlocal are so full of hate, ignorance and fear that it is often beyond belief. They will take any subject whatsoever and twist and manipulate it until it suits their hateful intolerance. Sharia Law! Muslims! OH NO! You two are closer to stand against everything that America stands for.
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Oct 29, 10 8:47 AM
Hmptonlocal is not being intolerant, she is merely saying that if we allow one religious group, we must also allow others. I fail to see how this is bigoted. You are too fast to judge for your own benefit
By chairmanoftheBORED (11), Southampton on Nov 3, 10 10:45 AM
The invisible man in the sky needs us to walk within the invisible lines on the sidewalk or we shall be punished. It's 2010 right? Just checking.
By double standard (1288), quogue on Oct 29, 10 8:31 AM
The point is you should have the right to worship and I should have an equal right to be free from your worshiping. No Eruv.

By double standard (1288), quogue on Oct 29, 10 8:36 AM
Please explain how putting a piece of black tape on a telephone poll takes anything away from you or forces you to participate in someone else's religion, please provide specifics as to why and how. When you drive past a church and see a cross are catholics forcing you to practice their religion? When you are driving down the road and a funeral procession has the right of way is this FORCING you to participate in that religious ceremony?
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Oct 29, 10 8:50 AM
1 member liked this comment
I would be suprised if you would be subjected to any worshiping because of the eruv. I highly doubt that anyone is going to stop in the street and start praying or reciting the torah. The services will still be indoors, so don't worry, you shouldn't be exposed to anything that you may be offended by.
By Academics (14), Southampton on Oct 29, 10 9:00 PM
Forces? Where do you see the word "forces" in my post? "Free from" as in you do your stuff over there in a synagogue or a church or a hut, and I'll worship (or not worship) in an appropriate venue. Sidewalks are meant for safe passage from point A to point B and nothing more. Black tape on poles is not the point.You don't see the difference between an Eruv and a cross placed on a church? Really? Your point about a funeral procession is comical.
Can you tell me why one group should get special ...more
By double standard (1288), quogue on Oct 29, 10 9:12 AM
Your arguments are absurd. The issue of eruvin has been in court numerous times and the courts have never objected to them. So please the matter of separation of church and state is a non-issue. An eruv is not an article of worship and is not a religious symbol per se.
By davidsline (70), new york on Oct 29, 10 11:58 AM
An Eruv enables the carrying of objects out of doors for Jews on the Jewish Sabbath that would otherwise be forbidden by Torah law. Please tell me how allowing an Eruv in Westhampton is not offering special consideration to one group. You can't. Tell me how the town says no to the next religious group that asks for special consideration. You can't. Yet, you are surprised when people are against it for being concerned about possible problems that may arise from it.
By double standard (1288), quogue on Oct 29, 10 12:36 PM
2 members liked this comment
First of all, you are incorrect. It’s not Torah law, eruvin is rabbinical in nature. Please don’t comment on issues that you know nothing about. Second of all, there are many “special considerations” given to those who establish religious symbols on public land, and the courts have backed their legality. However, eruvin are not even religious symbols, and that is the distinction between eruvin and all other religious symbols. An eruv can even make use of existing infrastructure. ...more
By davidsline (70), new york on Oct 30, 10 9:24 PM
I have read conflicting definitions of what an Eruv is, but I will take your word for it. Whatever the definition, the fact remains that one group is asking for special privileges, and the size of the privilege is not at all the point. You can not say yes to one group and then no to another. The "who is this bothering" argument being thrown around has no substance. I maintain that this is a Pandora's box issue. We disagree. I wish you well.
By double standard (1288), quogue on Oct 31, 10 8:09 AM
1 member liked this comment
There is no alternative definition. The description that you suggested has been put forth by anti-Semites seeking to deride Orthodox Judaism. Their argument is that Orthodoxy from the get-go has been to circumvent the biblical laws. This is simply incorrect, and in any case, not anyone’s business.

It’s not the size of the privilege only the fact that it has no effect on anyone and it’s not a religious symbol whatsoever. Consequentially, if any religion were to have similar ...more
By davidsline (70), new york on Oct 31, 10 11:49 AM
Sir, do a google search for "Eruv" and read the myriad of definitions. You simply refuse to acknowledge that this issue could result in other religious groups asking for "concessions" on town sidewalks. Your arguments have successfully diminished the need for an Eruv as either a religious symbol or article of worship. So I ask you why do you bother to fight? It's no big deal, right? I don't care if the issue is that of an Eruv for Jews or the blood of a chicken on telephone poles for Santeria worshipers, ...more
By double standard (1288), quogue on Oct 31, 10 1:15 PM
1 member liked this comment
I reiterate there is no other definition presented by people who actually know what they are talking about. The other claims being banged around are made by people with agendas including anti-Orthodox and anti-Semitic biases.

No, I simply propose that if any religion were to have similar needs with no effect on others whom do not follow that religion, there is no reason to object to their requests. No doubt you are entitled to your views, but realize that they are selfish, have nothing ...more
By davidsline (70), new york on Oct 31, 10 4:00 PM
1 member liked this comment
"I disagree I see absolutely no substance in your argument only some latent biases that you can’t come to term with or don’t want to admit to publicly. "

====

I admit publicly that I don't agree with with any one group thinking that they have some kind of entitlement to concessions simply because they think it's no big deal. That's arrogance, sir. As far as you accusing me of being anti-semitic (because that is what you are accusing me of) I can say that you know nothing. ...more
By double standard (1288), quogue on Oct 31, 10 8:56 PM
Not only is it no big deal, it’s within our legal rights. Moreover, you will not see that it even exists. So, Sir, it’s arrogance to object. Yes, I believe that at the minimum you are displaying an anti-Orthodox bias. There is no doubt that your arguments are excuses. Disagreeing with thinly veiled arguments does make you a bigot.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 1, 10 1:04 AM
I feel sorry for for you if you are going to go through life thinking that anyone that disagrees with you is a bigot. You are big on definitions, go look up inferiority complex.
By double standard (1288), quogue on Nov 1, 10 7:10 AM
1 member liked this comment
No, your alternative argument is nothing but a smokescreen for your bigotry. Yes, if one resists the construction of a string and/or plastic tubing, even though it’s not an issue of separation of church and state (as the courts have consistently stated) and it has absolutely no effect on anyone, he must be a bigot.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 1, 10 11:35 AM
Interesting logic you use there. Excuse me as I have to go watch my dog chase his tail now. It seems he read your post too and has bought into your philosophies hook, line and sinker.
By double standard (1288), quogue on Nov 1, 10 1:04 PM
Bigotry is blinding. Look in the mirror and ask yourself why are you are truly bothered by an eruv.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 1, 10 1:32 PM
It's ok Davidsline, it's ok. The world ain't out to get you. Neither am I.
By double standard (1288), quogue on Nov 1, 10 1:42 PM
Just think about the argument for a second:

The jewish people are asking Westhampton to allow something that the people denied themselves.

Sounds dumb to me

By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 2, 10 12:21 PM
Like most people on this thread you probably have no idea what you are talking about.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 2, 10 1:24 PM
I'm sorry for you to comment in such a way must mean you are bigoted towards me. There I said it. In fact you said it every other post so I can't see it getting flagged.
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 2, 10 9:33 PM
Would you then care to elaborate on your above comment so that I can explain what I mean?
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 12:35 AM
It's two sentences in perfectly correct grammar. I get the weird sense you are a paid blogger who has a well defined agenda and anyone who doesn't toe your line is considered the enemy, a bigot, anti-semite or whatever big school names you so choose.

Frankly I really don't care about an eruv. It literally means nothing in my life. What I do take exception to are vocal minorities jamming their agenda down one's throat. I'm not saying that is you in particular but if the shoe fits.....

By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 4, 10 3:42 PM
For someone who doesn’t care much about the eruv, you spend a lot of time criticizing it. That is correct, I am a paid blogger. I spend my own money on defending issues that I care about. For all I know you are being paid by the anti-eruv group. Most of the arguments opposing the eruv are blatant anti-Semitism. No doubt those opposing the eruv would rather not be labeled anti-Semites so they formed a Jewish group to resist the eruv. The bottom line is no one can deny the anti-Semitism behind ...more
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 8, 10 10:58 AM
There's only one solution here, and everyone knows it and is avoiding the obvious truth. Close all the dagburn stores on Saturday. What's so important that it can't wait to be carried around on Sunday or Monday? As for the little pieces of tape, I say, if you really mean to follow the law, put up the actual walls in the villages.
By Manorville Major (16), manorville on Oct 29, 10 10:07 AM
Here we go again, all this hate mongering. By the way, who made you an expert on Orthodox Jewish law? Where is it stated that actual walls are needed? The issue of eruvin is of a rabbinical nature. They are the ones that proscribed and they are the ones who permitted even through the use of tape.
By davidsline (70), new york on Oct 29, 10 12:06 PM
I think the stores should be closed on Sunday, that's the Protestant Sabbath! I think we should be able to place little crosses on the same utility poles that way we are marking our territory too!
By sayitaintsojoe (100), Westhampton on Oct 29, 10 11:14 AM
2 members liked this comment
Please, an eruv is not an article of worship and is not a religious symbol per se.
By davidsline (70), new york on Oct 29, 10 12:08 PM
1 member liked this comment
Davidsline! If it isn't a "religious symbol per se" then exactly what is it? If the eruv has to be in place to allow certain things to be done on the Sabbath and they can't be done now, then my friend, that is a religious symbol...
By sayitaintsojoe (100), Westhampton on Oct 30, 10 10:33 AM
2 members liked this comment
Oh, please. Please explain how an eruv can be classified as a symbol when it can even consist of existing infrastructure? Stop this charade. Stop trying to camouflage your anti-Ortodox bias with these inane arguments. You wouldn’t know an eruv from a utility pole even if I pointed it out to you.
By davidsline (70), new york on Oct 30, 10 9:25 PM
If these Eruv Poles get pushed thru, it's the beginning of the end for these towns. Just look at what the Orthodox have done to a little hamlet Upstate called Kiryas Joel. You're darn right there will be a major shift in population, lifestyle and culture. Fight now or accept the consequences which will be major and will happen very quickly.
By SisBoomBonacker (91), Hamptons on Oct 29, 10 11:19 AM
2 members liked this comment
Please, no town became Orthodox because of an eruv. That is simply factious. In any case, you are simply bigoted. Shame on you.
By davidsline (70), new york on Oct 29, 10 12:10 PM
1 member liked this comment
Sorry, I meant fictitious.
By davidsline (70), new york on Oct 29, 10 12:13 PM
Davidsline, I do not know if you are Jewish, but as a gentile who lives in this bigoted community where people so blatantly flaunt their hatred and ignorance, I can only say that it is always the ignorant that yell the loudest. Keep the faith!
By peoplefirst (787), Southampton on Oct 29, 10 1:13 PM
A voice of reason!!!
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 1:03 AM
The blatant anti-semitism on this site is disturbing and disgusting. Those of you arguing against something that will have no affect whatsoever on your lives is reprehensible. To compare this to Sharia Law is beyond stupid. Tolerance. Look it up.
Oct 29, 10 1:08 PM appended by peoplefirst
To the SH Press editors, is this what you imagined for these discussion boards, for them to become a haven for bigotry and hate? You should not give a voice to such blatant ignorance. If the topic is religion you should not allow comment.
By peoplefirst (787), Southampton on Oct 29, 10 1:08 PM
1 member liked this comment
You know, PF I do agree with you. I even feel bad about my "The invisible man in the sky" post. That was rather insensitive and I do apologize for that. My argument against the Eruv concerns the precedent that it may set on a town level, and has nothing to do with being for or against any specific religion. To compare the Eruv debate to Sharia law is way out of bounds. I agree that debate crosses the line when it becomes offensive and/or hurtful. There certainly seems to be an anti-semitic undercurrent ...more
By double standard (1288), quogue on Oct 29, 10 1:37 PM
So peoplefirst, when anyone doesn't agree with the Jewish population the first word out of your mouth is Anti-semitism. Sorry, but get over yourself. No one religious group should have any more right to have something than any other religious group. Quit with the whining "anit-semitism" everytime something is said about the Jewish community and realize you live in the United States of America and everyone is entitled to free speech and therefore we can voice our opinions, and my opinions have ...more
By sayitaintsojoe (100), Westhampton on Oct 30, 10 10:31 AM
1 member liked this comment
sayitaintso, Please explain how this religion community is being given an advantage over any other religion? Were protestants or catholics denied something granted to them? No. By accusing the religious "group" of "thinking they are entitled to more than any other religious group" you have clearly shown that you are acting in a bigoted and myopic manner and that you are completely oblivious to the facts. This board IS filled with blatantly bigoted nonsense and just as you are entitled to spew ...more
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Oct 31, 10 1:18 PM
Regarding the "Rabbi's House":

Since some correspondents seem unaware of the controversy surrounding the so-called "Rabbi's House", I'll summarize it.

Over ten years ago, the Hampton Synagogue in Westhampton Beach was allowed a variance for a non-conforming use (a house of worship in a district zoned for single family residences) which, among other things, permitted the congregation to retain an existing house on the property for use as the Rabbi's domicile. They also were exempted ...more
By highhatsize (2123), East Quogue on Oct 29, 10 1:50 PM
2 members liked this comment
Stony Brook, East Northport, Patchogue all have ervu's and those villages haven't changed. What differant about WHB ?
By whb978 (3), westhampton beach on Oct 30, 10 7:29 PM
1 member liked this comment
The difference is that our community is overwhelmed with bigotry and hatred.
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Oct 31, 10 1:19 PM
I would have said that they were presumptuous, but you see them as bigoted and malevolent as well!
Nov 1, 10 10:15 PM appended by highhatsize
Oh good. My first chance to use the, "Append" application. My response was ironic, as in, "the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning". I posted the comment to imply disingenuously that I was referring to the folks who were opposed to the eruv when, actually, I am referring to the PROponents (especially Rabbi Marc Schneier). In the immortal words of Danny Kay, quoted in "I'll Tell Them I Remember You", a delightful memoir of his youth and early Hollywood years by William Peter Blatty, "Some Jews not so nice." (If this thread has left you with a sour taste, I recommend that biography to lift your spirits.) Oh, and for the record, I think that all Jews and Gentiles are equally fair-minded or not.
By highhatsize (2123), East Quogue on Oct 31, 10 10:15 PM
highhatsize, you often try to play both sides of the fence, but on this topic you are no different than those you attack on others. So many of the posts here are so blatantly anti-semitic as to be disgusting. Comparisons to sharia law and Muslim takeovers are presumptuous? No, they are bigoted and hateful.
By fcmcmann (417), Hampton Bays on Nov 1, 10 9:28 AM
in progress hat size's world, everyone is bigoted and racist, full of hatred and pesumptuous. how can they even get through the day? the eruv is a dopey idea and whether it goes or not is of no significance. it is one of the stories that keep people busy as the summer turns to winter. let it go, in a few months, you won't know its even there. and let ms. progress accuse everyone of being a bigot and racist. its cute and its her m.o.
By yessiree (78), Southampton on Nov 1, 10 7:04 AM
yessiree, I have read your narrow-minded and offensive postings. Defend yourself any way you'd like, but your words speak for themselves.
By fcmcmann (417), Hampton Bays on Nov 1, 10 9:26 AM
I'm still trying to understand this. There is clearly a great divide on this issue. It seems to be primarily based on 1st Amendment and the "Pandora's Box" effect. I have a few questions... Don't most rabbinical authorities allow use of wheelchairs and canes on the Sabbath? If so I'm not sure where the need lies, other than being able to push a stroller or carry keys or a book. Do WHB & LIPA allow signs and other "non-religious" markings on utility poles (either expressly or by turning a blind eye)? ...more
By Quoguer (8), Quogue on Nov 1, 10 8:34 AM
Every transformer pole has the same black U guard over the geound wire that is used for the ervu. You wouldn't be able to tell if its a black u guard over a transformer ground or a lechi.WHB uses LIPA poles to place flags and baners on Oak St and Mill Rd. Peconic Bay Medical Center hangs its baner across Main St.
By whb978 (3), westhampton beach on Nov 1, 10 8:37 PM
And the do not understand why they have been run out of every country
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 2, 10 10:29 AM
And you’re a sick bigot.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 2, 10 12:17 PM
No I am HONEST
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 2, 10 10:31 PM
Just read a history book
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 2, 10 10:32 PM
oldguy, you should be ashamed. Of all of the disgusting posts I have read on this blog, yours is the absolute worst. I fully expect your fellow bigots to defend you, but that will only serve as proof of their and your extreme ignorance.
By fcmcmann (417), Hampton Bays on Nov 3, 10 12:35 AM
Right because Jews wanted to establish eruvin so they ran them out of the country. I stand be my stament you are a sick bigot.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 12:38 AM
You people hate to hear the truth. Read history books. They started out great "They killed God's son"
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 3, 10 7:52 AM
oldguy, the debate is whether an Eruv should be allowed on public sidewalks. You offer nothing to the debate with such nonsense.
By double standard (1288), quogue on Nov 3, 10 9:25 AM
You’re the same with just a more PC twist on things.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 12:04 PM
Insightful, you are davidsline.
By double standard (1288), quogue on Nov 3, 10 12:37 PM
The people who live in Westhampton Beach DO NOT want it
What more has to be said????
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 3, 10 9:34 PM
davidsline
Does the truth really upset you that much??
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 3, 10 9:35 PM
"What more has to be said" is the underlying reason that you and your ilk oppose the eruv.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 11:03 PM
"Does the truth really upset you that much." Yes, I hate bigotry.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 11:04 PM
Tha you must hate what you see in the mirror
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 4, 10 11:50 PM
I remain amazed that the thread is this long and Frank Wheeler hasn't chimed in.
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 2, 10 12:26 PM
Highhat remains correct in the sense that the past infractions should be cured:

1. the rabbi's house
2. parking

I don't live on a contiguous street but I go past it enough to empathize with residents who have 2-6 cars parked in front of their houses. Some streets nearby lack high curbs and drivers feel entitled to pull up on the grass.

While it is not a full blown catering hall, I'd have to say Id be a bit annoyed if a place of worship used their bldg/land improperly.
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 2, 10 12:29 PM
1 member liked this comment
i have never once seen bigotry on this site..can someone point it out to me? it simply doesn't exist. you do know that bigotry is when someone doesn't like someone else for no other reason than their race, color or creed. nope, there is not a single case of that anywhere on 27east and i challenge you to expose it.
By mackt (73), montauk on Nov 2, 10 1:28 PM
You don’t say?
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 12:36 AM
you want to know why you can't see it, mackt, because by acknowledging the outright bigotry portrayed in a number of these postings would mean that you would have to admit the same about yourself
By fcmcmann (417), Hampton Bays on Nov 3, 10 12:54 AM
Well said.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 1:02 AM
The only lame comment here is somebody named ice said ''the chosen people'' that is sarcastic, but its barely racist...sort of. But beyond that, there are a lot of people calling folks that are not in agreement with them racist...some guy named davidsline said that the eruv isn't a religious symbo-recent law-school grad no doubt. Tend to agree with the gentleman above. Not much bigotry here, some folks that don't agree with an eruv, thats not really racist. false charges of racism are so detrimental ...more
By yessiree (78), Southampton on Nov 2, 10 4:51 PM
Yeah Davidsline has a rather quick trigger finger with his bigot gun. I just don't get the whole "you don't agree with me so you are a bigot argument." Once he threw that out I didn't see much reason to continue a debate with him. For the life of me I don't understand why the rabbi doesn't delineate a route for his congregation and just leave the town out of it. If the Eruv is symbolic, why does it have to be physically marked? Even if they printed a map and handed it out in temple, would this ...more
By double standard (1288), quogue on Nov 2, 10 9:00 PM
The difference between you and others is that you purposefully developed an argument that on the face of it does not appear bigoted, but there is no doubt that it’s only a cover. Unless you are just plain selfish there is no other explanation. In any case, an eruv needs to be physically marked by either a wall or something that represents a wall.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 12:34 AM
Right, the argument made here all along that we can’t allow Orthodox Jews to come into the community is not bigoted. The argument that Jews were run out of countries because of issues such as an eruv is not bigoted. Please save your indignation for others.

Even the fact that the anti-eruv campaign is being run by Jews is a cover for bigotry. Discriminating against Orthodox Jews even by non-Orthodox Jews is either a form of anti-Semitism or at the minimum simple bigotry. You guys ...more
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 12:55 AM
Since you believe otherwise, please elaborate on how a someone’s gate or a riverbank becomes a religious symbol?
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 1:01 AM
Your words davidsline:
-It’s not Torah law, eruvin is rabbinical in nature
-An eruv can even make use of existing infrastructure.
-it’s not a “special privilege” only a concession with very limited applications.
-An eruv can consist of riverbanks, existing gates, houses or something that represents a wall. Orthodox Jews don’t bless these constructs; they only require that they be classified (according to Jewish law) as a true representation of a wall.

+++

Those ...more
By double standard (1288), quogue on Nov 3, 10 8:41 AM
1 member liked this comment
Rabbinical law carries a lot of weight by Orthodox Jews. You miss the point. The fact that it’s no shirt of your back, and it’s not an issue of separation of church and state there is no reason not to allow it. Unless of course you are selfish or more likely bigoted. So yes if other religions would have similar requests that don’t affect anyone there would be no reason not to allow them to do so, as well. There is no reason to worry about this limited concession getting out of ...more
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 12:02 PM
Is that the 5th or 6th time you have called me a bigot? Like a parrot "bigot bigot bigot"
Your inability to see the point of view of anyone else on this matter is childish at best. But we can fight about it as long as you want because I want to see just how many "bigot, bigot, bigot" rants you have in you.

Here is the argument for you again in case you missed it.
I am against a public sidewalk being used for (enter name of a religion here) purposes.

I'm sorry to all the ...more
By double standard (1288), quogue on Nov 3, 10 12:36 PM
2 members liked this comment
davidsline
Shouldn't you direct your ire towards Mayor Teller. Though I have an opinion against the Eruv, I am not actively fighting anyone about it. I'm not writing letters, I'm not protesting, I'm not yelling... I just have an opinion. The truth is this isn't a very large issue in my opinion. I'm against it, but if it happens live and let live. Once again, I wish you well even though you call me names.
By double standard (1288), quogue on Nov 3, 10 2:23 PM
You are accusing me of not seeing other points of view regarding the matter. I would like to know what other point of view should I entertain. Besides for your cunning excuse of an argument please acquaint me with one other argument being bandied around that is not blatant anti-Semitism? You yourself have lectured a few people on this thread that their comments are not useful.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 8:47 PM
double standard
You are NOT the bigot
davidsline IS
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 3, 10 9:39 PM
oldguy: "And the(y) do not understand why they have been run out of every country" "You people hate to hear the truth. Read history books." Even double standard considers your views beyond the pale.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 11:01 PM
Now you are being bigoted to walls...what do you have against them?
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 4, 10 11:58 AM
Next thing you know were not going to be able to say Merry Christmas, they will make us say happy hilidays or something like that....oh wait!!!!!
By GoldenBoy (167), EastEnd on Nov 2, 10 5:15 PM
3 members liked this comment
I'm telling ya it's the string. Westhamptonites must hate the string. First it was silly string on Halloween and now it is the eruv

- Navin Jonson
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 2, 10 9:34 PM
1 member liked this comment
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By TIRED (13), whb on Nov 3, 10 12:21 PM
I was looking at the map and was wondering how the string gets across the Quogue Canal? Also what happens if an accident takes a pole down and the string is broken?
By EastEnd68 (833), Westhampton on Nov 3, 10 2:38 PM
davidsline, you are a victim young man. you see, you are projecting your bigotry on others. You, in your heart hold bigotry, which is why it comes out when you discuss issues for which you hold prejudice.

Websters defines bigot as such: "bigot - a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own".

The only person I can see here who is intolerant of other peoples opinions is you sir.

"the true contents of our heart emerge when we find difficulty ...more
By yessiree (78), Southampton on Nov 3, 10 3:29 PM
Oh I forget. You probably should brush up on your Yiddish סאמדיי is איין טאג and ביגער should be גרעסער
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 9:15 PM
You just proved everyone point
You are just a A-- hole
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 3, 10 9:41 PM
Did you forget your in America
Have something to say TRY ENGLISH
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 3, 10 9:42 PM
What? Did you see what I was reffering to?
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 11:07 PM
You are such a bigot that you are blinded by hate. You should not be commenting on the subject as your command of the language is paltry.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 11:15 PM
I prefer latin "face meum capitum"
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 4, 10 12:00 PM
Inane. Yes I am intolerant of people who are bigoted. By the way Non Orthodox Jews exhibiting intolerance towards Orthodox Jews should be labeled anti-Semites. We should always remember that Hitler did not care if you were Orthodox or not. Even when Jews converted In Europe there were lists to make sure that they did not enter the blood lines. In any case, I wonder why you left out the rest of the definition given by Webster’s, “especially : one who regards or treats the members of ...more
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 8:33 PM
I knew you would finally have to bring up Hitler. Your type ALWAYS does. Just so you know I lost a Uncle in WWII who was killed getting jews out of the camps
GIVE IT A REST
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 3, 10 9:44 PM
What do your opinions have to do with your uncles? “Your type ALWAYS” maintains that Jews are not worth it.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 3, 10 11:11 PM
davidsline you are so filled with hate and rage that it has made you see only what you want to see. You paint with a broad brush and are way too quick to attach labels to people. I disagree with the comments from Oldguy, yet you dump me into the same pile. If you can't see the difference then you are twisted to the point where debate with you is a complete waste of time. I hope you find some happiness in your life and stop worrying about all the nonsense you conjure up.
By double standard (1288), quogue on Nov 4, 10 8:30 AM
Actually I am an extremely liberal minded person, and know bigotry when I see it. No there is no difference between you and him, just a matter of intelligence. In any case, you have not answered why -- besides for your argument -- I should not take offence with the arguments set forth and label them anti-Semitic. The only thing that I will concede is that your argument can be termed selfish as opposed to bigoted. It’s your choice.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 4, 10 10:55 AM
ahhh a Judge Smails moment! I find people who must project who and what they are are shallow and insecure. Or in other words the exactly the opposite of what they are professing to be.

Usually phrases such as "I am not a racist" is often followed by such enlightening proof as "look see how many I have cutting my lawn"
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 4, 10 12:04 PM
Oh yeah, it is clear that you are liberal minded... as long as someone is agreeing with you.
I'm being selfish for having an opinion that differs from yours? Sir, isn't that a bit self righteous? Answer...yes.

From my post above
"The truth is this isn't a very large issue in my opinion. I'm against it, but if it happens live and let live."

That is selfishness in bigotry in your world only davidsline. Your world only.

And this will be my last response to your posts ...more
By double standard (1288), quogue on Nov 4, 10 12:05 PM
You guys are clowns. It is typical of bigots to try and turn the table and label those who call them on their bigotry as bigots. Please, you can fool yourselves but no one else.

There is no reason not to allow the eruv to be established unless you are a bigot. You guys have no justification to use an argument that an eruv will bring Orthodox Jews into the community. There is no way to explain away this argument, its simple anti-Semitism. Sorry, this has nothing to do with you agreeing ...more
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 4, 10 11:09 PM
1 member liked this comment
dadvidsline:

Ok your not a bigot
your boring

feel better now?
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 4, 10 11:27 PM
So davidsline tell me how many times you hear some one from Japan CRYING about the 2 bombs dropped on them. Even you can figure that out "never" Stop your crying and get a life
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 4, 10 11:56 PM
This is another common argument by anti-Semites, why do Jews keep on harping on the Holocaust? Well silly, the Japanese were not decimated in proportion as the Jews were. The Japanese were not targeted because of their race they were bombed because they declared war on the US. Please elaborate on what the Jews did to deserve any punishment. Regarding Japan it was war as opposed to Hitler and the Jews it was genocide. Then again you’re a waste of time. You simply can’t come to terms ...more
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 5, 10 12:31 AM
Ugh... I promised myself I wouldn't respond, but he keeps draggin' me back in!
A. Thank you for allowing me to consider myself selfish as opposed to bigoted. That is very nice of you. I think you like me. (Sarcasm font needed on this board)
B. Some of the comments posted here are anti-semitic. This I do agree with you about. I think it is obvious to most which ones are.
C. I think one person mentioned that an Eruv will result in a wave of Orthodox Jews moving to the area. I disagree ...more
By double standard (1288), quogue on Nov 5, 10 7:58 AM
Well again you prove that you know nothing. The two citys that were bombed in Japan were the center for Christianity and I am sure you had no idea about that. Maybe you should stop quoting jewish law and start quoting American law because that is were your live
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 5, 10 1:18 PM
I find it fascinating that you could admit that there is some anti-Semitism on this thread, but can’t fathom that I am deeply offended by the hatred displayed. Besides for your argument, I would like to hear one other argument that does not reek of anti-Semitism. You make it sound as if there are many others who have similar arguments such as yours. That is simply incorrect. All the other arguments set forth here are clearly anti-Semitic besides for yours.

I am not going to debate ...more
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 7, 10 1:37 AM
Right and I have a bridge for sale. This claim is another conspiracy theory. Please, I would debate you anytime regarding American law. You seem to know little about it.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 7, 10 1:40 AM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By yessiree (78), Southampton on Nov 4, 10 9:32 AM
yes, i am sorry, i would like to translate into english, the yiddish i inscribed above.
By yessiree (78), Southampton on Nov 4, 10 9:32 AM
oops... but the translation is this to davidsline "may your brain someday be bigger than your little toe". hahahahaha.
By yessiree (78), Southampton on Nov 4, 10 9:32 AM
1 member liked this comment
so David, answer me this, is anyone who disagrees with you on the subject of the eruv anti-Semitic? If so, it's YOU who are the bigot in your refusal to even entertain another opinion. Screaming "anti-Semite" at anyone with a different position makes you nothing but a joke!
By bigfresh (1219), north sea on Nov 4, 10 10:54 AM
1 member liked this comment
No your refusal to admit that the opinions expressed on this board as anti-Semitic places you in the same camp. The main argument that the neighborhood will be overrun by Orthodox Jews (which happens to be incorrect) is simple bigotry and has no other rationalization. There has been numerous statements made here that are unabashedly anti-Semitic. I would like to see you take these arguments to court. Shame on you all. You can fool yourselves but not others.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 4, 10 11:08 AM
I have a fundamental question here; why would any group of people desire to be in a town where they are clearly not wanted?
By SisBoomBonacker (91), Hamptons on Nov 4, 10 11:22 AM
I don’t think that your question deserves a response, I just want to point out that you inadvertently are admitting that it’s anti-Semitism.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 4, 10 11:28 AM
Here's a fun little game we can all play...

If you had to choose one person who has posted on this Board who you think would be a good neigher who would it be?

Conversely, if there is one person on this Board who you think would make for a poor neighbor who would it be?

Sometimes people just can't see how they appear to others.
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 4, 10 12:07 PM
I could never allow you to be my neighbor as you wear a Superman costume as I am a bigot and totally against super heroes.
By double standard (1288), quogue on Nov 4, 10 12:17 PM
I respect that. I mean did you ever see Batman zip out of the bat cave? What no kids on bicycles in his neighborhood? Heck Superman must drive his neighbors nuts with all the low flying buzzing. You know I am smug because I can fly AND to show off I have a cape to flap in the wind. I mean we just fly around doing good deeds even if no one wants help.

Your right, I may not want to live next to me
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 4, 10 12:26 PM
Is Davidsline the same clown who got a verbal beat down on Dean Speier's blog?
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 4, 10 12:29 PM
Maybe the ERUV will bring about more Political Change which would be good for Westhampton Beach considering how the absence of a strong "political force" has lead to the total nonsensical way that the Village is run. Hopefully a united polical force can also change the administrative function of the village, too.
By TIRED (13), whb on Nov 4, 10 12:40 PM
uhh maybe you misread the article but the eruv covers WHB, Quiogue and Quogue. Quiogue is an unincorporated village and the other two are incorporated. So what the hell are you talking about exactly?

You may now join Davidsline as two neighbors I don't want..
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 4, 10 3:45 PM
1 member liked this comment
I posted this elsewhere-all Long Island should have a eruv around it-that would put an end to this silly problem. Let the Jewish people live and walk anywhere from Brooklyn to Montauk. What a delemia-people will go crazy deciding where to live.
By EastEnd68 (833), Westhampton on Nov 4, 10 4:34 PM
1 member liked this comment
Wouldn't it be really funny if by some quirk of geography the eruv narrow to a few feet. The bottleneck could make for great sport.
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 4, 10 6:28 PM
I say no on the Eruv, but yes on a special area where a particular group of people can go if they have to conduct commerce, every once in a while. And, it won't matter if its Saturday or Sunday.
By dylan32 (64), east hampton on Nov 4, 10 9:34 PM
What the heck are you talking about?
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 4, 10 11:29 PM
I guess i am lost? Is this common in NY in the village? ...where do we give these priveleges?
By hmptnlocal (47), Hampton Bays on Nov 4, 10 11:51 PM
????????????What particular group and why?
Not in my country
My family are from 2 different countries ...do you want me to subject you to my religion?...because I can... .If you want to open the door...one you may not like very much...but I live in town so....
By hmptnlocal (47), Hampton Bays on Nov 5, 10 12:02 AM
Who is forcing you to do anything?
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 5, 10 12:38 AM
I believe Hambone is open to the idea of allowing his backyard to be used as a meeting place to conduct commerce on Saturdays. However, an alternating Sundays we will be meeting at the far left swing set on the Westhampton Elementary School playground.
By double standard (1288), quogue on Nov 5, 10 8:15 AM
Are you here solely to fuel davidsline's rhetoric?
No one....no group...and No one on this stupid board is even hinting that a religion is "subject" or "forced" on anyone. Med up.

If you are insinuating that "subject" means that you see a particular group's symbols than you really need a new life b/c those images and symbols are all around you (try US coinage to start). Existing is one thing...existing and reacting to them is quite another

By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 5, 10 2:05 PM
Yeah absolutely!

I'm selling string
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 5, 10 8:57 PM
That was directed to hmptnlocal...not double standard
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 5, 10 8:58 PM
Get to the point
The people who live in Westhamton Beach DO NOT WANT IT
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 4, 10 11:57 PM
Well unfortunately for you the law is not with you racists.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 5, 10 12:39 AM
Well again you just prove to all of us that
You are the BIGOT
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 5, 10 1:10 PM
religion is not a race..you lessen your arguement w/ incorrect statements. Then again you might have worn that bigot thing a bit thin. Try these:

Cretin
dolt
ninnymuggin

...have more if you really feel the need to play the schoolyard name game
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 5, 10 2:08 PM
Lets try this again and read this real slow so you get it
THE
PEOPLE
WHO
LIVE
IN
WESTHAMPTON BEACH
DO
NOT
WANT IT
so no matter what you say or attorneys from Manhatten that the rabbi brings in will change that
DO
YOU
UNDERSTAND
NOW?
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Nov 5, 10 10:00 PM
Well, as a matter of fact, for the sake of this argument the word racist is apropos. The Supreme Court ruled regarding several anti-discrimination laws that Jews are a race. However, I don’t subscribe to this ruling, but I was not incorrect in my use of the word.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 7, 10 1:41 AM
It’s a pity that you have a soapbox from which to spew your hate. Now you can say what you want about me, but clearly there are some level headed people on this thread who, while not agreeing with me, agree that you are a bigot. So there, I am not alone in exposing your true colors.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 7, 10 1:43 AM
So David---you proved my point, by labeling all who disagree with you, even those with a well thought out, well articulated position, as anti Semitic, makes you a bigotted, narrow minded fool. Your people are being done a disservice by your inane, miopic babble. Shalom.
By bigfresh (1219), north sea on Nov 5, 10 7:09 AM
1 member liked this comment
Right, besides for “double standard” there were many articulated ideas that were not anti-Semitic in nature. Please, you guys are either comedians or fools. One person who disagrees with me on this board nevertheless admitted that there were some anti-Semitic remarks made on this thread.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 7, 10 1:44 AM
If you choose to label us as comedians or fools how exactly would you describe yourself?

Again, name calling debases your argument. I offered three good put downs but you opted to guy with "comedians" and "fools". Next time I would like to be referred to as a ninnymuggin...just to see you type it.

By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 7, 10 6:14 PM
Your right, most of the commentators on this thread are much more radical than fools or comedians their anti-Semites.
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 7, 10 7:17 PM
Oh I forgot, isn’t ninnymuggin two words?
By davidsline (70), new york on Nov 7, 10 7:21 PM
So here's the rub. I had a guy in my building who was simply toxic. I mean he was anti-charismatic. There are some people who draw a crow and are well liked by all. This guy was as social hand grenade. He was rude, argumentative, and convoluted. Seeing this guy turn the corner elicited a groan. I will grant he had an agenda and a vision. But the way he delivered his message was so infuriating to all that people ignored the message and focused on him. While this guy is now deceased its as ...more
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 5, 10 2:19 PM
2 members liked this comment
I would like to point out that if this headline is true "Letter Suggests Synagogue Had Sights Set On Larger Religious Boundary Nov 3, 2010 11:24"

Than the Synagogue has not been totally honest
In contrast many people who posted here (most anonymously I concede) have been completely honest.

...just a thought
By Hambone (379), New York on Nov 7, 10 6:15 PM
Eruv spelled backward is vurE.

Peace on Earth?

Think about it!
By PBR (4365), Southampton on Nov 7, 10 6:41 PM
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