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Jan 20, 2011 6:43 AMPublication: The Southampton Press

Group Pushing For Religious Boundary Files Suit Against Southampton Town, Westhampton Beach And Quogue

Jan 20, 2011 6:43 AM

Advocates looking to establish a largely symbolic religious boundary in western Southampton Town filed a civil rights lawsuit in federal court last week, alleging that local elected officials are discriminating against Jewish people by blocking the boundary’s establishment.

The East End Eruv Association, a non-profit group that has been pushing for the establishment of the boundary, called an eruv, since last year, and a handful of local residents are listed as plaintiffs in the lawsuit that was filed last Thursday, January 13, in U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of New York in Brooklyn. Among its requests, the lawsuit demands that Westhampton Beach and Quogue villages, as well as Southampton Town, drop all objections to the boundary’s establishment.

On Tuesday, the Long Island Power Authority and Verizon filed their own joint lawsuit in the same federal court, also naming both villages and the town as defendants. The lawsuit asks the court to order the municipalities not to block the installation of wooden markers, called “lechis,” that are needed to demarcate the proposed boundary. The two utilities, both of which previously granted the East End Eruv Association permission to affix the markers to their poles, note in their lawsuit that the defendants have “threatened to impose fines and/or to pursue other legal remedies and actions” if they do not reject earlier requests filed by the non-profit.

Both utilities also ask the court, “no matter which party or parties are right,” to clarify the legality of local zoning laws that the defendants have cited as reason to deny the requests for the installation of the lechis, as well as the “associated rights and obligations” of LIPA and Verizon. Town and village officials have previously told the East End Eruv Association that the lechis would violate local zoning laws.

The lawsuit filed last week demands that the villages of Westhampton Beach and Quogue, and Southampton Town, drop all objections to the boundary’s establishment. It also demands the “awarding of compensatory and punitive damages in an amount to be established at trial.” A specific figure was not included in the litigation.

“The governmental entities have deemed it appropriate that they will do whatever they can to suffocate religious freedom,” said Hank Sheinkopf, the founder of Sheinkopf, a strategic communications firm in Manhattan that is donating its services to the plaintiffs. “The only place to get a remedy is in the courts.”

The plaintiffs in that suit are charging that the three municipalities have prevented them from finalizing agreements with Verizon and LIPA that would allow the East End Eruv Association to affix the wooden markers to utility poles. The boundary is needed, according to the plaintiffs, to create a symbolic space allowing Orthodox Jews to carry and push items, such as strollers and wheelchairs, to temple on the Sabbath.

“Verizon and LIPA have been caught in the middle of a dispute between the East End Eruv Association and the municipalities involved and is requesting that the United States District Court direct the appropriate action to avoid the imposition of fines or legal actions that would result without the court’s intervention,” said LIPA spokeswoman Vanessa Baird-Streeter on Wednesday.

“There was, and still is, a discrepancy between the eruv association and the various villages and towns,” said Verizon spokesman John Bonomo. “Verizon will cooperate with whatever is decided, but something just needs to be decided.”

The defendants in the lawsuit filed by the East End Eruv Association include Westhampton Beach Mayor Conrad Teller, Quogue Village Mayor Peter Sartorius, Southampton Town Supervisor Anna Throne-Holst, and all members of their respective boards. The suit charges that the elected officials have been actively campaigning against the eruv.

“Our efforts for rational discussion and fair treatment have been met with harsh words and obvious discrimination,” stated Marvin Tenzer, president of the East End Eruv Association, in a press release that accompanied a copy of the lawsuit. “These villages and town are violating our constitutional and civil rights by engaging in an active campaign to obstruct our ability to practice our religion.”

Mr. Teller and Mr. Sartorius were both served with the first lawsuit on Wednesday morning, a day after they received the joint suit filed by LIPA and Verizon. The mayors declined to comment on both lawsuits.

“I would have no comment on it—I don’t want to get into it at all,” Mr. Teller said, referring to the one filed by the association. “But as far as I’m concerned, [the lawsuit’s] not factual as it concerns the Village of Westhampton Beach.”

Ms. Throne-Holst did not return calls seeking comment this week.

At the core of the original complaint is whether or not the three municipalities have the authority to prevent the boundary’s establishment. The plaintiffs are requesting that the court rule that there is “no basis for the defendants’ positions that local laws prohibit the establishment of the eruv.”

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As an Agnostic, this quote came to mind:

"All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry."

~ Edgar Allan Poe
By Mr. Z (10155), North Sea on Jan 13, 11 6:07 PM
4 members liked this comment
Have the various defendants named in the suit actually said "no" to this proposal?

By PBR (4862), Southampton on Jan 13, 11 7:42 PM
4 members liked this comment
Good question, PBR -- I don't think the East End Eruv Association even applied to Westhampton Beach for an eruv this time around.
By Frank Wheeler (1791), Northampton on Jan 13, 11 7:54 PM
How many of the "plaintiffs", are "second hand residents"?

Regardless of Constitutional "rights", how about some respect for your neighbors, whose home this is? And "punitive damages"? How much do you plan to soak the taxpayers for?

There is no easy answer to this, but behaviors elsewhere have cast a VERY long shadow, as to the conseqences of one's construction. Also, PERMISSIONS are required for it's existence. The Constitution, and religious freedom have NOTHING to do with ...more
Jan 13, 11 8:52 PM appended by Mr. Z
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv
By Mr. Z (10155), North Sea on Jan 13, 11 8:52 PM
1 member liked this comment
So as society evolves, it would seem Religion must as well.
By Mr. Z (10155), North Sea on Jan 13, 11 9:10 PM
1 member liked this comment
What took them so long?
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 13, 11 8:09 PM
Note well "“Our efforts for rational discussion and fair treatment have been met with harsh words and obvious discrimination,” stated Marvin Tenzer, president of the East End Eruv Association, in a press release that accompanied a copy of the lawsuit. “These villages and town are violating our constitutional and civil rights by engaging in an active campaign to obstruct our ability to practice our religion.”

A. if the effort for rational discussion was the You Tube ...more
By Hambone (497), New York on Jan 13, 11 10:05 PM
1 member liked this comment
Davidsline will be here as soon as he's done calling the snowman on his neighbor's lawn a bigot.
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 14, 11 9:43 AM
2 members liked this comment
So you attack someone before he even has a chance to say anything? Does he have less of a right to express his opinion than you? As you readily admit and actually seem quite proud about your double standards, I already know the answer.
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 14, 11 2:34 PM
This might be the most ridiculous thing I've read in awhile. What I really take issue with is this phrase: "obstruct our ability to practice our religion.”
I would argue that when you base a tenet of practicing your religion on the use of private property (i.e. telephone poles in this case) then you knowingly run the risk of not being granted permission to do whatever you might want to do with said private property. Should we all treat telephone poles and their accessories as though they ...more
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 14, 11 12:49 AM
5 members liked this comment
Right on.
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 14, 11 9:45 AM
1 member liked this comment
NAILED IT!
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 15, 11 5:54 PM
Why do so many of you find it so easy to dismiss charges of civil rights violations? Whenever 27East runs an update to this story the same bigots crawl out from under their rocks. With all of the serious issues facing our country and community, you object so violently to small wooden blocks on utility polls?
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 14, 11 8:41 AM
This has nothing to do with civil rights, bigotry, tolerance, etc. Nothing is impeding their ability to practice their religion... except their own religion. I have great respect for a person's ability to worship as they choose to. If you need to strip naked and howl at the moon in order to adhere to your religious beliefs I say- go for it! Just don't demand that I take your clothes off and hold them for you so that you may stay within the confines of your orthodoxies. And certainly don't threaten ...more
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 14, 11 1:42 PM
"If you need to strip naked and howl at the moon in order to adhere to your religious beliefs I say- go for it! "

+++

Note to self, start a religion with Cdwyer213.
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 14, 11 1:53 PM
3 members liked this comment
'Twill have to wait until the summer solstice. Two feet of snow pack makes for unpleasant moonlight cavorting, lol.
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 14, 11 2:07 PM
1 member liked this comment
Your contradicting yourself. No one is asking you to do anything. If you don't like the little piece of wood on the utility poll, ignore it.
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 14, 11 2:29 PM
1 member liked this comment
Sure, ignore it. Why have rules, regulations or codes? Just ignore them. Just let any group do whatever they want. A small display, a large display... who cares? Just ignore it. How wonderful! Of course, there is this little thing called reality to deal with, Razza5351. You either have rules or you don't.
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 14, 11 3:12 PM
It has nothing to do with liking it or not. It's the principle of the matter. And what I am being asked to do, in this case, is to ignore the fact that a certain group feels they are entitled to special treatment (and I would feel this way about ANY group making a stink about something like this, not just this one in particular). And then, when they are not met with the complacent response they expected, they try a back door approach to getting around the law. I don't like sneaky people and this ...more
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 14, 11 4:21 PM
3 members liked this comment
If I would like to have a small metal crucifix attached to all of the telephone poles in a three block radius of all of the Christian churches on the East End to remind Christians that they are near sacred ground; would that be ok with you, even if some of those utility poles were in front of synagogs; or would you trample on my rights to do so by objecting?
By Old School (22), Southampton on Jan 18, 11 2:01 PM
3 members liked this comment
"Nothing is impeding their ability to practice their religion... except their own religion."

the perfect summation > the perfect quotation. perfectly said. perfectly concise.
By david h (405), southampton on Jan 19, 11 10:54 AM
2 members liked this comment
....speaking of serious issues facing our country, how 'bout the odd relationship between the ruination of public school systems with the constructing of "symbolic" religious boundaries??
By Gravely Concerned (1), Quiogue on Jan 28, 11 8:45 AM
The Flying Spaghetti Monster will, of course, demand equal time in this pole dance.
By loading... (547), quiogue on Jan 14, 11 9:36 AM
1 member liked this comment
Let's hear it for his noodly appendage!
By Frank Wheeler (1791), Northampton on Jan 14, 11 1:34 PM

All are welcome into the loving embrace of His Noodly Appendage.

R'amen
By loading... (547), quiogue on Jan 14, 11 10:15 PM
The problem of a religion's restrictive rules are not a problem for either society or government to address. They are a problem for those who embrace that religion and should be addressed as such. What about Catholics who use birth control? Suing everyone in sight will simply add fuel to the fire of hatred and bigotry and the complainants in this action are no less bigotted than the critics. You want war? ENLIST!
By Old Quogue (11), Quogue on Jan 14, 11 11:14 AM
2 members liked this comment
This case will turn on whether the various villages and towns have permitted other groups to post notices on utility poles. If they have never officially authorized such actions, the eruv attorneys will try to show that they tacitly agreed. Presently, the controlling case law is that a municipality cannot refuse to permit lechis if it has permitted other notices (although the question has never reached the Supreme Court).

The wording of the complaint indicates the two-fold intent of the ...more
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 14, 11 11:55 AM
Highhat, although I agree with you on so many topics, your disdain for local jews is no less obvious than your disdain for the police.
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 14, 11 2:33 PM
to razza5351:

I agree with your statement modified with, "some", before, "local". To quote the inimitable Danny Kaye, "'Some' Jews not so nice." [Italics added.]
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 14, 11 3:47 PM
Admitting it makes it no less unacceptable.
By peoplefirst (787), Southampton on Jan 15, 11 12:05 PM
to peoplefirst:

Mirriam-Webster:

"disdain: a feeling of contempt for someone or something regarded as unworthy. . ."

I'll cop to that.
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 15, 11 2:07 PM
i as a private citizen will be filing a counter lawsuit against the eruv ass: to recoup all costs that the town will incur fighting this nonsense. You have to love sue happy New York State. Draw a line on a map and be done with it.
By maxwell (169), speonk on Jan 14, 11 1:10 PM
2 members liked this comment
I would like to join you in the suit. ENOUGH!
By Old Quogue (11), Quogue on Jan 23, 11 11:06 AM
If you want to carry or push something to your place of worship? Then carry or push it.
You need symbolic Boundaries? Put them on a map and learn how to read one.
I hope a young teenager doesn't find one of these an attractive nuisance and perhaps damages one. Will he be tried for a hate crime?
And whats next? Demanding businesses to shut down certain days if they fall within these boundaries?
As a non orthodox taxpayer, the only religious boundary that anyone has to observe is ...more
By ADAMSG (53), EAST QUOGUE on Jan 14, 11 1:26 PM
1 member liked this comment
Why must everything be taken to the extreme by people like you? Seriously, what a ridiculous argument. I find it offensive that I have to say "God" in the pledge of allegiance, but I bet you'd fight like hell to keep that infringement upon my personal beliefs, wouldn't you?
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 14, 11 2:31 PM
1 member liked this comment
I am a proud American who does believe in God. Thank you for noticing.
By ADAMSG (53), EAST QUOGUE on Jan 14, 11 3:50 PM
1 member liked this comment
I wouldnt be surprised if eventually businesses in that area were pressured to shut down at certain times. In Brooklyn, the Friday night summer concerts at Coney Island were moved to Thursdays nights because of the same pressure. The Orthodox community objected to everyone else making merry on their Sabbath. This is not a comment of bigotry - its a stated fact.
By ts (71), southampton on Jan 17, 11 10:12 PM
3 members liked this comment
yes ther is precedent for this - i quote my officemate who said that this exactly happend in his town in NJ.

"Nothing is impeding their ability to practice their religion... except their own religion."

cdwyer nailed it above ... would love to see Razza's answer to the quote
By david h (405), southampton on Jan 19, 11 10:59 AM
Don't forget how hard we would fight to keep the word REPUBLIC as well you socialist atheist progressive hack.
By joe hampton (3109), south hampton on Jan 24, 11 1:33 PM
From a Princeton University student paper:
"Symbolic Boundaries" are the lines that include and define some people, groups and things while excluding others (Epstein 1992, p. 232). These distinctions can be expressed through normative interdictions (taboos), cultural attitudes and practices, and more generally through patterns of likes and dislikes. They play an important role in the creation of inequality and the exercise of power.
By Old Quogue (11), Quogue on Jan 14, 11 2:22 PM
3 members liked this comment
here is my issue with lawsuits: they are the ultimate fight. Threats are meaningless once one fails to act on it. Now that they sued there is no room for discussion or negotiation (though you can on the side). Mayor _______ would you be open to an eruv "You know I'd like to comment on an important matter such as that but since we are being sued I'll keep all my comments to myself".

Maybe it's me but if someone just sued me and I KNOW that they have building code violations, I'd be on ...more
By Hambone (497), New York on Jan 14, 11 2:38 PM
1 member liked this comment
Marvin Tenzer is 67...how much longer do you think he's going to be walking up Jessup Ave?
By Hambone (497), New York on Jan 14, 11 2:39 PM
"People like you" Razzzzzzz? Sounds like a bigotted comment to me. I thought you leftists always take the high ground on such matters. Playing the victim card too, you get a gold Demokrat star for your good work today! All you need for a clean sweep is a little class warfare and a kick in the nuts for Bush!
By bigfresh (3508), north sea on Jan 14, 11 2:46 PM
Razza5351 wouldn't know the "high ground" if she was deposited on it by a helicopter from the 106th ANG!

By Frank Wheeler (1791), Northampton on Jan 14, 11 2:55 PM
As Davidsline pointed out in a prior debate, an Eruv is "Rabbinical in nature." So if that is the case, it is the Rabbi's responsibility to find a solution to the carry issue. It's certainly not the towns issue. Davidsline pointed out that an Eruv "is symbolic." So if it is Rabbinical and symbolic surely the Rabbi can delineate the route to Temple for the worshipers. I don't care what religion we are talking about. Worship in a house of worship. In my opinion an Eruv is an extension of worship, ...more
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 14, 11 3:47 PM
2 members liked this comment
...
By Mr. Z (10155), North Sea on Jan 15, 11 3:15 AM
Where is the person suggesting that the Eruv association should purchase stock in LIPA and the phone company thereby being part owners of the poles. Then a map could be drawn up using the identification on those poles. There are numbers and letters burned into the poles I've looked at and elongated yellow and black signs with numbers on them. But that would not satisfy the need to publisize and bring this issue out that there is a precieved level of discrimination going on. Now that's worth pouring ...more
By Bob Schepps (77), Southampton on Jan 16, 11 9:45 AM
there is no way to "buy stock" in LIPA. Its a not for profit agency set up to deal with the LILCO debacle created by Cuomo the Elder. Reports to Board that is appointed by someone up in Albany. Good luck with dealing with them.
By davidf (325), hampton bays on Jan 18, 11 6:30 PM
Is it possible to get a copy of the complaint? I would like to read it. It doesn't seem like these plaintiffs have standing.
By ex-pat (49), East Quogue on Jan 18, 11 12:46 AM
A link to the suit has been posted above. Thanks for the suggestion.
By Bill Sutton (108), Westhampton Beach on Jan 18, 11 10:19 AM
Were the Exhibits not available? I'm just curious to see if they ACTUALLY submitted a picture of the Quogue Fire Department's "Pancake Breakfast" sign as evidence of discriminatory practices. Seriously?
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 18, 11 8:18 PM
The village should just have a vote.
By TheGoodLife (42), Westhampton Beach on Jan 18, 11 1:54 AM
The people in Westhampton Beach do not want it and that is why all this crap started.
These people just want their own way and do not give a dam about the town
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Jan 30, 11 11:27 PM
I thought that lechis were insignificant in size, about the size of a small bandaid. Now, according to the complaint, I find that they are 1"X4"X40".

As expected, it is clear that Westhampton Beach and Southampton Town are the roundheels in this action. The WB Trustees have already almost conceded, voting by a mere 3-2 to oppose the installation. ST is taking the position that it's a matter between the eruvites and the utility companies. Just the tiniest push and they will both be supine.

So ...more
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 18, 11 12:44 PM
I make every effort to refrain from getting caught up in these comments on 27east, but this eruv thing has me livid. CDwyer made a comment above that I think is so perfectly said, I can't top it: "This has nothing to do with civil rights, bigotry, tolerance, etc. Nothing is impeding their ability to practice their religion... except their own religion."
I don't give a CRAP how big the poles are or what they're made out of....that's not the point at all. If the eruv proponents want an area where ...more
By WHB Resident (9), WHB on Jan 18, 11 1:06 PM
p.s....Kudos to any elected official who takes a stand against this and to the several hundred Jewish neighbors of mine who have formed the JPOE (Jewish People Opposed to the Eruv).
By WHB Resident (9), WHB on Jan 18, 11 1:09 PM
3 members liked this comment
The towns should purposely lose the case in the first round of legal whatever then the local Pols can say "sorry, our hands are tied, we have to let the small pieces of whatever be placed on the poles" and then its done for minimal cost to taxpayer.
By davidf (325), hampton bays on Jan 18, 11 6:33 PM
A few musings after reading the PDF of the lawsuit...

1. I didn't realize Robert Sugarman was representing EEEA, I'm interested to see if he has adjusted his strategy at all since Tenafly.

2. Do they really think the Westhampton Beach St. Paddy's Day Parade sign over Main Street and a small sign for the Quogue Fire Department's Pancake Breakfast are compelling evidence of non-enforcement? This is the best they could come up with? Reflectors at Montauk Highway and Foster Road in ...more
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 18, 11 8:28 PM
Would it be okay to place Swastikas on poles as well? The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years. It even predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh! Artifacts such as pottery and coins from ancient Troy show that the swastika was a commonly used symbol as far back as 1000 BCE.
Just curious if what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 18, 11 11:05 PM
2 members liked this comment
Food for thought:


http://www.eruv.org/

“For many Orthodox Jews, an eruv has become as necessary as the second car or a second bathroom. We could get along without it, but life is just so much nicer with it.”



Eruv – Defining Space by Rabbi Yitzchak Gornish

http://www.kosherspirit.com/Article.asp?Issue=21&Article=281

While one does not need to consent to be part of the eruv, if one dissents this ruins the eruv. Regarding ...more
By Great Hamptons (4), Quogue on Jan 19, 11 12:24 AM
If up to Quogue - why do they not simply let the Police handle the problem as they do with everything else?? Have em pull over the Jewish folks, harass em constantly, maybe even go after their young children (a popular pastime of the Quogue PD). Draw down on then every time they are in the Village & scream expletives at them 24/7. Threaten the elderly too!!

That's how it works in Quogue - so why treat them any differently??

and why not!!
By G (323), Southampton on Jan 19, 11 11:02 AM
cheaper to pay someone to put eruv posts on the north & south pole >> the world is your eruv !

hoping we can get razza to respond to CDwyer's perfect sentance:

"Nothing is impeding their ability to practice their religion... except their own religion."

By david h (405), southampton on Jan 19, 11 11:07 AM
1 member liked this comment
I may make my own little eruv using pink flamingos cemented along the road...nothing screams "Welcome to the Hamptons" like kitsch

better yet....lawn jockeys!!!
By Hambone (497), New York on Jan 19, 11 2:04 PM
1 member liked this comment
yes, very nice idea !!
i think ther is an eruv on Bellows Pond Road in Hampton Bays(just West of Macy's, near the Slo Jacks Burger Joint) just before it connnects to Old Montauk Hwy there is a big old metal fenced off area that says "Welcome To tHE Hamptons" . . . it would be interesting to know if thats an eruv & how they obtained it ?
By david h (405), southampton on Jan 19, 11 3:08 PM
More interesting facts, I was stuck in a Wikipedia black hole last night after searching the term "lechis", I was looking for a picture but could not find any:
An eruv must be a physical boundary, the lechis connect with translucent wire to form a contigous span that surrounds the eruv. This is why a drawing on a map will not suffice. The boundary is representative of a doorway and walls and acts as an extension of the private domain. Back in the day when many villages or even groups of homes ...more
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 19, 11 2:41 PM
New article posted -- no link above as yet.

LIPA and Verizon have filed counter-suits asking that the Court clarify all parties' rights.

The plot thickens!
By PBR (4862), Southampton on Jan 19, 11 5:45 PM
The new article has been incorporated into this post to maintain the thread.
By Bill Sutton (108), Westhampton Beach on Jan 20, 11 7:06 AM
If the Eruv is so integral to Jewish life why did Rabbi Schneier not create one when he formed the Hamptons Synagogue so many years ago?
Where in Leviticus or anywhere in the Talmud does it state that an Eruv must be delineated by black plastic sticks on telephone poles. Haven’t these Lechis evolved from the original fortress walls of ancient cities, to later, hanging strings around the named area’s circumference to, of late, the posting of these plastic sticks on telephone poles. ...more
By the mink (11), Westhampton Beach on Jan 20, 11 6:27 AM
1 member liked this comment
Just when you think the world cannot be any more full of hate, bigotry and ignorance, you visit 27East and are confronted by the realities of our society.

The only bright spot I can find is that, although the list is growing, a majority of the most myopic and bigoted postings are from the usual suspects. This site has truly become a haven for the most disturbed among us.
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Jan 20, 11 9:29 AM
The irony is delicious. Your handle is PROGRESSNOW and you're defending a centuries-old, silly (yeah, I said it), religious edict that prevents its followers from carrying insurance cards on certain days.

My religion prohibits me from eating meat on Fridays during Lent. Others may think this is silly, and I agree somewhat. But if the Pope declared that we could break our no-meat rule if our town has crosses on all the telephone poles, would you be defending my DEMAND that Verizon allows ...more
By WHBangler (9), westhampton beach on Jan 20, 11 11:54 AM
2 members liked this comment
Thank you for so perfectly demonstrating exactly what I was talking about.
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Jan 20, 11 11:56 AM
??? So if I sued the town demanding that they put up crosses so I can break the rules of my religion, you'd defend and support me? Answer that question, please.
By WHBangler (9), westhampton beach on Jan 20, 11 12:08 PM
1 member liked this comment
please comment on this quotation from above - i think it is succinct and extremely pertinent.
>> and while so much of the low lying fruit comments (so much of which is pure humor) garner attention, this intellectual bullseye gets nothing!

"Nothing is impeding their ability to practice their religion... except their own religion."

i think this succinct insight deserves attention.
thanks.
By david h (405), southampton on Jan 20, 11 12:13 PM
1 member liked this comment
I'd be against Catholics putting crosses on telephone poles every bit as much as I am against Lechi's.
In this case it is Orthodox Jews that I disagree with. Does that make me a bigot? It sure gives them a built in reflex ie. "Oh you disagree with me? You must be a bigot." That's just lame and over-used. A lot of the posters here make solid arguments. It's childish to assume that one gets what one wants simply because he or she thinks it as no big deal.
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 20, 11 2:52 PM
Progressnow, no response? You're so quick to call me and others bigots because we disagree with you. However, I propose a scenario completely parallel to the Eruv demand, only this time based on a Papal edict being enforced on a town, and you can't respond.

I understand why: if you disagreed with a Papal edict being forced on the community, then by your own definition you'd be myopic and full of hate, bigotry, and ignorance.

Hurts to be called names, don't it?

By the ...more
By WHBangler (9), westhampton beach on Jan 20, 11 6:47 PM
2 members liked this comment
Here's a link to an interesting article from the Jewish press on Rabbi Marc Schneier.

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/rabbinical_group_poised_investigate_marc_schneier

If he really has the mental illness of bipolar disorder, Mazel Tov. It would explain his un-Rabbinical behavior. But with his record one has to ask if he is simply claiming it mendaciously to finesse charges of sexual impropriety.
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 20, 11 11:58 AM
It's my understanding that the N.Y. State Attorney General's office is going to also file suite against the municipalities, (not sure about individual trustees) for Civil Rights violations. Has anyone else heard about that?

Apparently, there was also an issue with the Westhampton Beach Police Department disproportionally ticketing Hampton Synagogue congregrants for illegal parking. Supposedly there are dozens of pictures of non-ticketed cars illegally parked in front of local churches. ...more
By Steven (113), Westhampton on Jan 20, 11 11:59 AM
> "Apparently, there was also an issue with the Westhampton Beach Police Department disproportionally ticketing Hampton Synagogue congregrants for illegal parking."

That doesn't even rise to the level conjecture on your part, but wholesale fabrication. I asked two rank & file members of the local PD (one just retired) about this at a football party yesterday, and neither even snickered and winked, but flat out wanted to know how much I'd had to drink.

Synagogue attendees who get ...more
By Frank Wheeler (1791), Northampton on Jan 24, 11 4:43 PM
Our vacation/weekend house is near the Temple. Rabbi Schneier promised that his congregants would walk to Temple prior to its construction being approved by the Village board. Never happened and congregant cars are illegally all over the place on Brook Road (breaking religious laws, no eruv anyway). Other local churches in WHB and Quogue have parking lots or are on Mill Road, a wide street with legal parking.

Local laws are clear: No religious signage or symbols on public properties. ...more
By colonelshousealum (11), westhampton beach on Jan 20, 11 5:31 PM
The courts and the N.Y. State Attorney General will decide what is legal and what is not legal. It wasn't legal for Blacks to use the same bathrooms as whites in Mississippi in 1965. Sometimes local laws reflect the backward thinking of the people who created them.

There will be an Eruv. It's just a matter of how much the trustees of Quogue, WHB. and Southampton want to personally spend (certainly the Jewish taxpayers will sue them if they attempt to use taxpayer money to defend themselves) ...more
By Steven (113), Westhampton on Jan 20, 11 7:15 PM
"prevent others from enjoying their constitutional right to religious freedom"

There it is again! What the municipalities are preventing is a violation of their code- there is no prevention of religious freedom. If the constructed leniency from orthodoxy is no longer working then, perhaps, it should be amended. Why should a village, town, etc. have to bend or change their rules to accomodate a very small segment of the population? This "prevention/ obstruction" BS, and yes- that is what ...more
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 20, 11 8:00 PM
The "codes" of Mississippi and Alabama said Blacks have to sit in the back of the bus, but we Americans refused those codes. Local "codes" mean nothing if they are unconstitutional.

Cdwyer you can call Jews a "streaming pile of crap," but all your anti-semitism will never bring you peace of mind.

It's over. You're done. The world changed. You've been left behind to smell your own armpits.

Church Bells will continue to ring, streets will be painted green, and Westhampton, ...more
By Steven (113), Westhampton on Jan 20, 11 9:27 PM
1 member liked this comment
I have no problem with people of any faith, including "Jews". What I find to be a steaming pile of crap is a ridiculous, unfounded, resource wasting lawsuit. I apologize if my comment was too nuanced to make it through your narrow world view but please don't label me with deragatory terms.
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 21, 11 8:17 AM
1 member liked this comment
whoa who whoa -hooooooold on a minute >> wher is CDwyer AS YOU SAY name calling ??

his comment is : "MY tax dollars are going to be used to defend my village from this steaming pile of crap"

okay littel Stevie, your misquoting trick is nasty and will be reported a inappropriate. trying to put insulting words of that nature in someone else's mouth is pure ignorance. -YES STEVIE THAT IS A SUCKER's cheap trick AND YOU ARE IGNORANT.

Dwyer nailed this issue above and you avoid, ...more
By david h (405), southampton on Jan 21, 11 1:02 PM
Cdweyer, I accept your apology and appreciate your humble response. Tea Party inflammatory language has no place in our country, but I'm sure you're a good man.

I'm confident that the trustees will see that defending the suit makes no sense and will be very costly. The Eruv is a basic right, like it or not. Christmas decorations, church bells, green stripes on St. Patricks Day are religion based, but part of our community. It's important to open up and accommodate the needs of all religions ...more
By Steven (113), Westhampton on Jan 22, 11 6:22 AM
stevie you should really be held accountable for your manipulative littel game

your little game of twisting someone's words into antic semetic insults IS A LIE AND RATHER DISGUSTING!! - you are delusional or tactical

he NEVER insulted you YOU TWISTED HIS WORDS - YOU should be apologizing FOR YOUR DECEIPT AND GNORANCE
By david h (405), southampton on Jan 24, 11 8:45 AM
1. For the record, i'm a she, not a he.
2. I am registered Green Party, about as far as you can get from the Tea Party.
3. My "inflammatory" rhetoric is directed at a frivoulous lawsuit, not any particular group. I would feel exactly the same way if this law suit were filed by Christians, whites, Protestants, etc.
4. There are no "basic rights" being infringed upon or violated here. If you can produce a law that says we must make repeated exceptions in town/ village code for one specific ...more
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 24, 11 9:41 AM
2 members liked this comment
"No effect on the community?"

I dare say that the neighbors of the Hampton Synagogue would disagree with you. There are already a thousand* Jews attending services at a residential location that otherwise would see about five family members on the property. How many more can be expected if the eruv is approved? Ten? A hundred? Five hundred? The zoning laws in place were supposed to protect purchasing property owners from oppressive inundations of this kind.

Fortunately for ...more
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 24, 11 12:19 PM
The eruvites have never succeeded in getting the US Supreme Court to decide that they have the right to post explicitly religious symbols on utility pols situated on public easements. Given the expansive meaning that the Supremes have given to behavior that furthers the establishment of religion, they never will be so authorized.

Decisions heretofore in lower courts have turned on a non-Constitutional issue, that is, whether a municipality has the right to selectively ban signage from ...more
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 21, 11 12:44 AM
1 member liked this comment
I love how Lipa is filling a suit.... a non for prophit agencey created to "lower" the cost of electricity.... if they have extra money to do this maybe they should lower their rates, instead of filing frivolous and petty suits.... I think we should have Cabin Fever Music Festival Billboards hung on all telephone poles in the towns that participate, just to remind everyone that great music is coming!
By cabin fever (9), Hampton Bays on Jan 21, 11 12:45 PM
Nothing wrong with the lechis as long as they hang a Cross, Crescent and Star, Hindu Swastika and Pentagram right next to it.
By Noah Way (450), Southampton on Jan 21, 11 4:12 PM
5 members liked this comment
The complaint should also have included a petition to direct the municipalities to allow Shomrim to accompany Orthodox Jews to Sabbath services in order to protect them from the bricks and rocks thrown by the (therein alleged) anti-semitic citizenry.
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 21, 11 8:08 PM
As it has been stated repeatedly, the only thing preventing them from practicing their religion, is their own religion. It is not their "religious right" to impose their beliefs, and practices in a vast public setting. I don't see ANY other religious organization with such a JOKE for a codicil of their "fatih". Of course, as an Agnostic, I feel NO ONE who thinks, or believes they know what "God" is, is delusional, and is simply the a participant in the continuation of a massive, generations old ...more
Jan 24, 11 6:26 PM appended by Mr. Z
Sorry, "faith". Fatih means something else...
By Mr. Z (10155), North Sea on Jan 24, 11 6:26 PM
1 member liked this comment
The burka comes to mind.Abuse begins when one ponders what constitutes abuse as justification for draconian thinking. Sharia is little more than codicils of insanity and represents an all-time low in the thinking of the human animal.
By joe hampton (3109), south hampton on Jan 24, 11 7:39 PM
Abuse exists, if it is perceived, or not.

The blessing of perceiving it, is that you very well could stop it.
By Mr. Z (10155), North Sea on Jan 28, 11 11:05 PM
They could but they do not
By joe hampton (3109), south hampton on Jan 29, 11 12:57 AM
The Blablas opened a church in my town. The high priest of the Blablas said that in order to get to Blabla church the worshipers must walk a path noted with Blabla symbols attached to utility poles. The town said no, so the Blablas sued. The Blablas eventually got their way and attached little Blabla symbols on utility poles.

Then the Whatnots opened a church and said they wanted to mark utility poles with little Whatnot symbols. The town said no, so the Whatnots sued. The courts said that ...more
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 26, 11 9:28 AM
Funny, but blabla is what I see whenever I read your teabaggery.
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 26, 11 12:25 PM
Lets lay it on the line as you suggested fake Razza. What exactly is your hate for the tea party. could you explain slowly and without the malice
By joe hampton (3109), south hampton on Jan 26, 11 12:32 PM
The teaparty is a fake movement begun as a protest to a black president. It was conceived and manufactured by Dick Armey and its main objective is to trick the ignorant into working on behalf of multi-national corporations and against their own interests. The teaparty is led by simple-minded, lunatics like Palin, Bachman, Angle and O'Donnel and bigoted "libertarians" like Rand Paul who hates government, yet spent millions to become a part of that government.

The teaparty's true objective ...more
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 26, 11 12:56 PM
Razza1234567
What does this issue have to do with the tea party?

Ps, I don't belong to any party as I see both sides as inept and corrupt.

You go ahead driving with one headlight on though. Send your check to your Democratic Party. They are doing such a wonderful job for you. They really, really care about you. Really.
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 26, 11 12:57 PM
Because all of you teabaggers have come here to spew your vile bigotry.
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 26, 11 1:09 PM
Reasoning according to Razza
A. If you disagree with Razza you are a member of the tea party.
B. If you are against the Eruv you must be a member of the tea party, and thus a bigot.
C. Even if you are not a member of the tea party, Razza can label you a tea party member bacause he has some kind of magic power.
D. When losing any argument, call someone a tea-bagger and walk away red faced and exhaling through your mouth.

Razza - you have tea party tourettes. There is no cure. ...more
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 26, 11 1:58 PM
Thanks for proving my point about your teabaggery.
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 26, 11 2:20 PM
Of course. How could I not prove your point? You have the magic teabag wand (aka spoon). Just waive it around and we all become mixed tea.

What's the next topic? Oh the big snow storm.
Razza "Snowplow drivers are all teabaggers. I'm going out with my magic spoon and proving it."
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 26, 11 2:46 PM
Objective - Small government,fiscal and personal responsibility,flat tax, upholding the 10th amendment, I am curious what do you find so threatening about those ideas
By joe hampton (3109), south hampton on Jan 26, 11 4:07 PM
Objective - government of corporations, personal responsibility for everyone but themselves, flat tax that - once again - benefits the wealthy, upholding the 10th amendment unless it involves the rights of minorities, women and/or gays then you want the federal government to intrude.
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 27, 11 1:52 PM
A+ on your term paper 2bl standard. i really really enjoyed this read! really good stuff. Come to 27east not for the weak reporting but for the great comments.
By david h (405), southampton on Jan 26, 11 12:16 PM
hey Razza wher is your response to>>

"the only thing preventing them from practicing their religion ... is the rules of their own religion"

??
By david h (405), southampton on Jan 26, 11 4:09 PM
He won't answer it. He'll just label you a teabagger for asking it.
Did you read Razza's answer to Joe H's question? It's actually scary.
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 26, 11 4:14 PM
No more scare than a Paul Krugman column or that guy that used to be on MS NBC I forget his name.Good thing Comcast and the common sense to FIRE! him.....good night all.
By joe hampton (3109), south hampton on Jan 26, 11 6:37 PM
Before Hat head or Southampton 251 finds that and jumps up and down I will say it......
Hey Joe Its scary not scare are you the stupidest guy in the tea baggers association or what OMG dude learn to spell. You libertarians are soooo stupid.
By joe hampton (3109), south hampton on Jan 26, 11 6:44 PM
who here can honestly say that an eruv would directly influence their way of living - in a negative way?

p.s. - saying something like "if we let those bastards put up an eruv, next thing ya'know we'll have sharia law and 7-11 wont sell beer!" is not going to help your case.

By dogfacejones (79), Southampton on Jan 27, 11 8:12 AM
1 member liked this comment
I can. I live in a community governed by laws, ordinances, etc. If any group can DEMAND exemption from those laws and scream discrimination until they get their way, what's the use in having the laws in the first place? This is not about Jews and discrimination; it's about opening up a legal Pandora's Box.

If the towns and villages are forced to cave under this lawsuit, it sets precedent that, yes, will change the community and my way of living.

Here's an idea: Ballot Initiative. ...more
By WHBangler (9), westhampton beach on Jan 27, 11 10:13 AM
I agree with WHBangler. The problem here is that a small group feels they are being discriminated against when, in fact, they are being held to the exact same standards as everyone else. Is this discrimination because they are not being offered special treatment? It makes no sense if you really stop to think about it.

This is clearly not an issue that should even be associated with municipal government in the first place. Why should a municipality be forced to make exemptions in their ...more
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 27, 11 12:10 PM
1 member liked this comment
Explain how it will change your life and explain in detail if you can.
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 27, 11 12:58 PM
explain this >

"the only thing preventing them from practising their own religion ... is their own religion"
By david h (405), southampton on Jan 27, 11 1:46 PM
Since you said it, perhaps you should be the one to explain it.
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 27, 11 1:49 PM
razza pls explain D's
By david h (405), southampton on Jan 27, 11 1:51 PM
I just did.
By WHBangler (9), westhampton beach on Jan 27, 11 2:08 PM
The rules of their religion prevent anyone short of living in a mud hut, from living a modern life, or using modern conveniences during certain times of observance.
By Mr. Z (10155), North Sea on Jan 27, 11 6:29 PM
Notice how Davidsline disappeared?
I wonder if he will resurface

This Razza guy reminds me of him tho'
By Hambone (497), New York on Jan 27, 11 9:25 AM
Razza cries "Teabagger" much like Davidsline cried "Bigot."

The interesting thing about both of them is they scream for tolerance while being completely intolerant of a differing opinion.
I think they both have anger issues, but don't want to ask because they'll call me a name and that will hurt my feelings.
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 27, 11 5:21 PM
1 member liked this comment
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By david h (405), southampton on Jan 27, 11 2:15 PM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By PBR (4862), Southampton on Jan 27, 11 7:20 PM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By david h (405), southampton on Jan 28, 11 7:23 AM
to dogfacejones:

This eruv won't affect me in the least but then I am not resident on the Hampton Synagogue's street and won't have to contend with augmented crowds of worshipers blocking the street in front of my house which was not planned with the perception that a thousand people would use it all at one time.

Moreover, I don't even agree with the Supremes' construction of the 1st Amendment that every sign of religion indicates establishment. However, if one religion gets ...more
Jan 27, 11 4:06 PM appended by highhatsize
Make that "GanEsh"
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 27, 11 4:06 PM
ok - thatnk you highhatsize - good start.

so let every religion have the opportunity to do this - do we believe that since one group seeks to do this then every other will? I don't believe the point of the eruv is for decoration or advertising.

I understand the concern about climbing utility poles - so perhaps the real solution is to put these objects on something that doesn't have such a critical functional purpose - like a tree, street light pole, speed limit sign, stop sign, ...more
By dogfacejones (79), Southampton on Jan 27, 11 7:14 PM
2 members liked this comment
In all honesty, it's not the religious factor that bothers me at all. What really "frosts my cookies" (for lack of a better term) is the fact that a lawsuit has been filed which claims that this group is being discriminated against when, in fact, they are being treated exactly the same as every other citizen. And, further, that this alleged discrimination is "obstructing their ability" to practice their religion. This is just not true. They are free to practice their religion. The problem lies within ...more
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 27, 11 8:22 PM
2 members liked this comment
It comes down to the old "Give 'em and inch, and they'll take a foot".

We all need permits, to do just about anything these days. Is that discrimination too?

I think not...
By Mr. Z (10155), North Sea on Jan 28, 11 1:26 PM
Snow over. Cabin fever persists IMO.
By PBR (4862), Southampton on Jan 27, 11 7:21 PM
Freedom of religion is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship, and observance; the concept is generally recognized also to include the freedom to change religion or not to follow any religion.[1] The freedom to leave or discontinue membership in a religion or religious group —in religious terms called "apostasy" —is also a fundamental part of religious freedom.

this ...more
By dogfacejones (79), Southampton on Jan 27, 11 8:46 PM
1 member liked this comment
This is a freedom from religion issue, they want to mark off an area to be free from their religion, therefore they cannot logically invoke the freedom of religion argument.....
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 27, 11 11:08 PM
2 members liked this comment
"the only thing preventing them from practising their own religion ... is their own religion"

perfectly said from CDywer ... whats with the blaming others for their own rules ?
By david h (405), southampton on Jan 28, 11 7:21 AM
So then shouldn't the battle be about any and all religions having the same rights that Orthodox Jews are asking for here? Also, shouldn't it be up to LIPA / Verizon / Cablevision to decide whether or not such displays create a safety risk for their workers, and what the parameters for safety would be in terms of size and quantity?
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 28, 11 10:52 AM
And thank you, DF Jones for arguing in favor of the Eruv without throwing out the standard "It's no big deal" and "If you are against it you are a bigot and/or a teabagger." It's nice to have a rational debate once in a while.
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 28, 11 11:07 AM
Oh...DFJ is real mature...
her arguments are:
1-
"p.s. - saying something like "if we let those bastards put up an eruv, next thing ya'know we'll have sharia law and 7-11 wont sell beer!" is not going to help your case."
and
"you two should hibernate until the boardy barn reopens in the spring - you can talk your non-sense to the slobs jiggling their guts under the big top then"
Dog face? what does 711 and Boardy Barn have to do with your argument?
By Paumancock (7), Hampton on Jan 28, 11 12:02 PM
Worshipping in a public setting, has NOTHING to do with the issue, because it (eruv) does not qualify as a "teaching, practice, or worship".

This is an ACT of displaying proprietary boundaries, on public thoroughfare, and property. It is a PUBLIC display, using PUBLIC property, for PRIVATE purposes.

Any questions?
By Mr. Z (10155), North Sea on Jan 28, 11 1:31 PM
to dogfacejones:

You neglected to post the footnote, i.e. "[1]".
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Feb 2, 11 1:44 PM
ICE and David H -

neither of your statements are accurate (and you've already typed them here)

you two should hibernate until the boardy barn reopens in the spring - you can talk your non-sense to the slobs jiggling their guts under the big top then.
By dogfacejones (79), Southampton on Jan 28, 11 7:59 AM
1 member liked this comment
dogface...
you are not listening to anything anyone else has to say.

You repeat the same thing over and over in a variety of different ways and never address others concerns.
This is not a matter of bigotry or discrimination at all!! You want to label it that way because it gives you an excuse. You are manipulative and ignorant.

As was said over and over
"the only thing preventing them from practicing their own religion ... is their own religion"

The fact ...more
By Paumancock (7), Hampton on Jan 28, 11 11:22 AM
paumancock, it is you who is manipulative and ignorant and anyone here trying to say this is not about bigotry is in denial. And stop trying to make false equivalencies about "opening the floodgates". Nonsense.
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 28, 11 12:00 PM
An this is based on what?
By Paumancock (7), Hampton on Jan 28, 11 12:03 PM
Razza , you have no argument. Just because you want doesn't mean you get. You want to live in a place where there are no rules, codes or laws? You think that society will be better with ala carte regulations, where the governed choose what is important or not?
That's a fantasy world. Go on hating it, it's reality.
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 28, 11 12:34 PM
Actually, that's called anarchy...
By Mr. Z (10155), North Sea on Jan 28, 11 1:32 PM
Pauman _ _ _ _ i think you mispelled your name
By david h (405), southampton on Jan 28, 11 10:55 PM
Nope. Think not...
By Mr. Z (10155), North Sea on Jan 28, 11 11:00 PM
Wow, dfj is exhibiting the debating skills of a drunkard, so it is ironic she wants me to nap until I can go talk to her ilk at the BB. Just for the record I have never nor will ever go to that place as it just isn't my cup of tea or crappy beer for that matter....
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 29, 11 2:42 AM
DFJ - Once you let this happen, then you're left with two unappealing options: either the gov't opens the floodgates to every 'religious display' that's sought (bad), or deals with each subsequent request on the 'merits,' forcing gov't to draw the line somewhere (worse). The point has been made repeatedly on threads relating to this issue: how will gov't determine what is/is not a 'legit' religion? How will gov't decide what is/is not a 'legit' religious display?

Should the Wesboro ...more
By CoweeDewey (110), East Quogue on Jan 28, 11 11:49 AM
1 member liked this comment
"Should the Wesboro Baptist Church (the lowlifes that protest soldiers' funerals) be allowed to put up hate-filled signs on utility poles as a display of its 'religion'? How about anti-abortion Catholics putting up graphic photos of aborted fetuses?"

HAH! They do worse than that, they paste their hate-filled bigotry on freaking billboards! They are talking about a small wooden marker on a poll which, unlike your ludicrous aborted fetus analogy, will go completely unnoticed by anyone but ...more
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 28, 11 12:03 PM
I don't think they would be able to put up billboards in Westhampton because our laws do not allow it and we would like to keep it that way.
Don't think that this is too crazy of an analogy by CoweeDewey...the Wesboro church tried to protest at the funeral of the young soldier on shelter island.
Sharia law has worked it's way into England....
There is no bigotry here only people trying to use it as an excuse to get what they want...another version of playing the race card.
By Paumancock (7), Hampton on Jan 28, 11 12:11 PM
Thanks Raz - You are Exhibit 1 to my example. What about tiny photos of aborted fetuses? Delicious ham sandwiches? Ganja for the Rastafarians? Give us your own personal criteria on what is OK and what isn't, and then everyone on here will give you their criteria, then the gov't will impose its criteria, and then you're including some religions/displays and excluding others, and then we've eviscerated the guarantee of religious freedom in this country.
By CoweeDewey (110), East Quogue on Jan 28, 11 12:12 PM
Razza is incapable of processing a differing opinion. Arguing with him is a waste of time. He offers the same old "bigot, hatred, teabag" response like an insane parrot. He refuses to see the big picture on this issue, as do most who have no problem with the Eruv.
The fact is that this is very much a pandora box issue and it will be allowed for all or none. Seeing this simply as an anti-orthodox issue makes about as much sense as a congressman seeking $150,000 in damages because of un-pitted ...more
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 28, 11 12:27 PM
1 member liked this comment
blah blah blah & yawn

way to constantly stir the pot and never answer the basics:

"the only thing preventing them from practicing their own religion .. are their own rules that prevent them from practicing their own religion for whatever reason they were established in the first place"

a fair & reasonable question to ask by those who dont know and would appreciate being educated ... however, the splotch just keeps stirring ...
mark the eruv with a splotch.
By david h (405), southampton on Jan 28, 11 3:44 PM
It seems to me, that this is a PRIVATE use, for PUBLIC property, for the benefit of a small sect of society, who, since they cannot tolerate their own prescribed rules, seek to circumvent them by using PUBLIC property as the means by which.

Did I miss anything?
By Mr. Z (10155), North Sea on Jan 28, 11 1:35 PM
1 member liked this comment
I think you've hit all the major points. Clear and concise- nice work!
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 28, 11 4:14 PM
1 member liked this comment
Since when is Verizon a public company?
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Jan 29, 11 12:55 PM
1 member liked this comment
It's public as in publicly traded.....
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 31, 11 5:27 PM
I don't know Z, that might be an oversimplification. Maybe better described as a religious use, of private property, for the exclusive benefit of the particular religion (pretty sure utility poles are considered private property, and the fact that this involves a religion, instead of a private individual or secular entity, seems to be what's confusing everying and getting them so fired up)
By CoweeDewey (110), East Quogue on Jan 28, 11 6:07 PM
"Public Utility", privatized property?
Jan 28, 11 9:58 PM appended by Mr. Z
I would posit that, anyone who has ever paid an electric bill, even once, has purchased some portion,or share of that pole. And, NO, paying for one after you broke it doesn't count....
By Mr. Z (10155), North Sea on Jan 28, 11 9:58 PM
2 members liked this comment
The actual, physical poles are owned by the utility (probably LIPA or Verizon in this case), so- technically speaking- private. However, the poles are general located within a utility easement that runs with the deed to any piece of property affected which gives the utility the right to access their poles, lines, etc. for maintenance, installation and safety issues. The property owner still OWNS this land, but they legally acknowledge the existance of this special area. However, even though these ...more
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 29, 11 12:06 AM
2 members liked this comment
Beautiful...thank you Cdwyer213...
It seems technically, they don't have a pole to stand on....

By Paumanock (7), Hampton on Jan 29, 11 4:11 AM
I would bet that most if not all of the LIPA poles are located within the municipal right-of-way for the streets that the poles are located next to. I don't believe the poles these folks are talking about are ones that might be located on a private landowner's property.

One interesting aspect of this case will be the extent to which the towns can enforce their zoning and code ordinances on these folks. There is a federal law that provides religious groups with additional protections from ...more
By CoweeDewey (110), East Quogue on Jan 29, 11 12:37 PM
Sometimes the poles are located within a right of way but othertimes, especially in areas where there is no sidewalk, they are often right on the edge of a property owner's yard. I don't know that it really makes much of a difference in this case.

I believe you are correct about the protections afforded religious groups for structures erected on their own property- I would imagine a church steeple is probably higher that what is normally allowed under code. And, in fact, the Hampton Synagogue ...more
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 29, 11 8:16 PM
I've been thinking more about Ganesha.

It's very easy to overlook Quogue if you are traveling along Montauk Highway. Quogue Street dips away from Montauk just over the causeway from Quiogue and rejoins it where Montauk makes a sharp left turn a mile or so further on. Neither of these entrances has signage. Between these two entrances, Foster Avenue is the other main entrance to Quougue and it is flanked by a car dealership and a gas station. Hardly attractions that would make you ...more
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 29, 11 12:08 PM
highhatsize, your flippancy is often amusing, but not when used in the service of your admitted prejudice of the Jewish faith. For all of your grammatical nuance, you are no more educated than the other ignorati who troll these boards.
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Jan 29, 11 1:01 PM
1 member liked this comment
I love the idea of Ganesha!! Lighten up Progressnow! Why couldn't we have him/her represent Quogue? Is there a problem with the Hindu religion? Because if we allow the Eruv...we must allow all faiths to be represented if they so wish.

Ironically Ganesha is the Hindu deity widely worshiped and revered as the remover of obstacles...LOL!

By the way, there is a house on Montauk Highway in Shinnecock Hills with 2 Ganesha at the entrance! They are beautiful!


By Paumanock (7), Hampton on Jan 29, 11 5:18 PM
1 member liked this comment
I always liked that statuary! I find they add a little character to an otherwise unremarkable stretch of road. I will glad sign the petition to install Ganesha gatekeepers at the entrances to Quogue if we find ourselves within the confines of the eruv.
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 29, 11 8:07 PM
to progressnow:

"Some Jews not so nice" just as Danny Kaye said. My perspective is analytical rather than prejudicial. The eruvites have mendaciously raised the bloody flag of victimization in an attempt to accomplish their egoistical ends. Everyone of fair mind should condemn them for their insulting allegations.

Speaking of which, you allege that I have an "admitted prejudice of the Jewish faith." I am sure that it will be no trouble for you authoritatively to establish the ...more
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 29, 11 3:25 PM
Foster Ave is not an entrance to Quogue-it runs north of Montauk into the woods.
By EastEnd68 (888), Westhampton on Jan 29, 11 6:33 PM
to EastEnd68:

Sorry. I meant Jessup Ave.
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 29, 11 7:48 PM
I a few more years non Jews or Goys as they call us, will be holding Hitler and the Nazi's in more contempt than the Jews, due to the excessive sense of entitlement the holocaust has given some of those of the Jewish faith. If you don't agree with them you MUST be an anti semite.... This is the fall back argument when logic and reason can't support their position.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 30, 11 3:26 AM
1 member liked this comment
Your posting is hands down the most vile, hateful and ignorant I have ever read. You are not voicing an opinion you are fomenting hatred. "A sense of entitlement" because of the Holocaust?! Did you seriously just type that? You use the murder of millions of people and the unimaginable suffering of millions more as justification for your own bias? Someone must have done something pretty awful to you in your life to have engendered such hatred.
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Jan 30, 11 4:28 PM
Coming from anyone, but you I would surprised..... I don't used the murder of millions, as I said they do......
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 30, 11 10:41 PM
Ice, now there can be no question that you are a bigoted moron.
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 31, 11 10:47 AM
In many communities where there are eruvs, the lechis are not recognizable as signs or symbols to those who don't know what or where they are. Through a little research my opinion has changed on this topic. If the orthodox Jews of the community would like an Eruv, I don't believe anyone should object. I would however, require the Eruv markings be for the most part unnoticeable to those not looking for them.
By METCOMedia (116), Hampton Bays on Jan 30, 11 9:50 AM
Ok if the same privilege is offered to all religions and the size and safety parameters are clearly defined and enforced.

I spoke to a friend of mine who is Orthodox and does not carry to Temple. She told me that her Rabbi wouldn't consider Lechis alone as an adequate Eruv. They actually have to use string connected from pole to pole. So clearly this issue has flexibility, and that flexibility comes from the Rabbi. So technically the Rabbi can draw a circle around a map of Westhampton ...more
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 30, 11 11:33 AM
And before I'm shot full of holes here by the angry mob, Davidsline (an Orthodox poster on these boards) specifically stated that an Eruv is "Rabbinical in nature."
By double standard (1506), quogue on Jan 30, 11 11:35 AM
Ah, ok. This actually answers a question I've been thinking about in regards to who provides oversight over the eruv. Does the rabbi have to "sign-off" off on the proposed eruv? And, yes, from my reading as well there has to be an unbroken physical boundary in order for the eruv to be considered kosher- this is where the string or line comes in. As I posted earlier, Lawrence has an orthodox maintenance group that is responsible for assuring the integrity of the eruv every Friday. They have even ...more
By Cdwyer213 (68), Quogue on Jan 30, 11 2:52 PM
It is my understanding some Eruvs use fishing line strung at the top of utility poles to create the Eruv's borders, provide maps and use no Lechis at all. This issue seems fairly controversial even within the Orthodox Jewish communities.
By METCOMedia (116), Hampton Bays on Jan 30, 11 4:54 PM
I wasn't aware Southampton Town expressed any objection to the establishment of an Eruv. I would be very unhappy to hear my tax dollars were being spent to prevent one.
By METCOMedia (116), Hampton Bays on Jan 30, 11 6:28 PM
Got to agree with ICE, (the latter part of his post). The Nazi genocide was certainly the most despicable phenomenon of which I have ever heard. But presumptuous Jews like the eruvites cover themselves in the mantle of holocaust victimization to justify invidious egomania. How dare they libel their neighbors by accusing them of bigotry without the slightest evidence other than that their neighbors oppose their will!
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 30, 11 8:18 PM
I think saying "presumptuous Jews like the eruvites cover themselves in the mantle of holocaust victimization to justify invidious egomania" goes too far, and I don't believe this to be true. What ICE wrote read as being rather hateful to me.
By METCOMedia (116), Hampton Bays on Jan 30, 11 10:30 PM
Call a comment hateful doesn't lessen the logic, if anything it strengthens it since you can't come up with a rebuttal based on competing logic.
I feel a hateful comment would be to say I wished the Nazi's had finished the job, but that wasn't what I said nopr what I believe.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 30, 11 10:40 PM
Highhatsize, every time you post your anti-semitism speaks louder and louder.
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Jan 31, 11 3:54 PM
2 other communities allowed an ERUV & had different results. Dan makes an interesting argument in the Jan 28, 2011 issue of his Paper which can be read online:

"Nutley or Lawrence? The Proposed Eruv in Westhampton is a Gamble"
By Dan Rattiner
By ts (71), southampton on Jan 30, 11 10:13 PM
to ts:

Thanks. Interesting. Doesn't argue the propriety of lechis, simply points out the utterly different outcomes in two communities that created eruvs, written from the perspective of a non-orthodox Jew.
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 31, 11 11:08 AM
AAAAhhhhh Craps..... how fitting.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 31, 11 5:26 PM
These people just will no stop till they ruin everthing
The people who live in Westhampton Beach do not want it.
They are the ones that count
By oldguy (60), hamptons on Jan 30, 11 11:20 PM
"These people"?! "These people will not stop until they ruin everything"?! Wow, it amazes me that someone would actually type that. You, sir, sound very similar to a certain German leader circa 1939
By razza5351 (551), East Hampton on Jan 31, 11 11:24 AM
to progressnow:

First, you accused me of having "admitted prejudice of the Jewish faith" and I requested that you cite a quote from my posts as authority. You didn't.

Now you say that "everytime [I] post [my] anti-semitism speaks louder and louder". Again, no citation.

What I HAVE posted is the phenomenon of Jews behaving badly. If you can find anything in my posts other than censure of behavior that is egoistical, mendacious, invidious and insulting, cite it. Otherwise, ...more
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 31, 11 4:11 PM
Citations? One only need read each of your postings. Though you attempt to couch your bigotry by stating that your prejudice is reserved for only a few, you constantly speak of "Jews" as a group and it is still bigotry.
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Jan 31, 11 5:09 PM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By ICE (1214), Southampton on Jan 31, 11 5:24 PM
1 member liked this comment
Your definition of bigotry is inane.
By highhatsize (3567), East Quogue on Jan 31, 11 7:43 PM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By progressnow (556), sag harbor on Feb 1, 11 8:01 AM
Highhat, ignore progressnow. She reflexively calls anyone against the eruv a bigot and anti-semite (ever heard of the JPOE?). When I proposed a parallel scenario in which a different religion DEMANDED exceptions to the town's rules, she crawled back into her cave for a week, lest she reveal her own bigotry.
By WHBangler (9), westhampton beach on Feb 1, 11 2:59 PM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By Paumanock (7), Hampton on Feb 1, 11 3:42 PM
WHBangler, this has been asked here before, but please explain, in detail, how this eruv will negatively impact your life.
By dagdavid (646), southampton on Mar 24, 11 9:58 AM
i see Progressnow's new tactic is to remove comments she does not like.
By Paumanock (7), Hampton on Feb 1, 11 4:05 PM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By Steven (113), Westhampton on Mar 24, 11 4:56 AM
This comment has been removed because it is a duplicate, off-topic or contains inappropriate content.
By shock (70), whb on Mar 24, 11 7:58 AM
Shock, that is hilarious! It shows the complete insanity of this argument and the opponents of an eruv who have absolutely no legitimate gripe. Thanks.
By dagdavid (646), southampton on Mar 24, 11 9:53 AM
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