Q&A: Shinnecock Leaders Say Sports Betting Might Be A First Step In New Gaming Venture

A recent announcement of an agreement to explore gaming options with the Hard Rock Cafe chain, owned by the Seminole Nation, was just the latest in a long journey for the Shinnecock Nation, involving both a potential casino development and economic opportunities in general.

Bryan Polite, chairman of the Shinnecock Nation’s Council of Trustees, and Randy King, the newly elected vice chairman, sat down recently to discuss the new development, revealed a desire to explore sports betting as a first step, and talked about where a gaming facility resulting from the merger might be located.

Q: So I’d like to start off just by clarifying exactly what the circumstances are, regarding your new partnership.

Bryan Polite: So, as our press release stated, it’s a three-way partnership between Hard Rock, which is obviously owned by the Seminole tribe of Florida, and Tri-State Partners, which is owned by Jack Morris and the Jingoli brothers, Michael and Joe Jingoli. And those two partners are also partners in the Atlantic City Hard Rock.

Q: Explain to me the evolution of this, because you had an agreement with the Ilitch family at some point. Is that now gone? Refresh my memory on how this all evolved over the last 10 years or so.

Bryan Polite: Any past contractual obligations is really something we can’t really get into at the moment, because there’s all kinds of legal issues with that. But we don’t have any contractual, current relationship with the Ilitch family or Mike Malik currently.

Q: So, you’re free to enter a new partnership with a new group.

Bryan Polite: We’re not bound by anything at the moment.

Q: How is this agreement different from agreements you’ve had in the past? Or is it?

Randy King: Well, the term sheet at this point right now, it’s not a full-fledged contract. It’s a term sheet of preliminary goals.

Bryan Polite: It’s a preliminary agreement that’s going to lead to a term of agreements, but it’s a contractual preliminary agreement.

Q: You’re basically exploring options …

Bryan Polite: The next phase of exploring. And we’ve been exploring options for the last year. So it’s bigger than that, but it’s not quite to the finish line yet. There’s a lot of things that we have to iron out.

Q: Do I understand that the state has a moratorium on new gaming facilities for the state? If you’re going to get approved, it would have to be as an Indian gaming facility, correct? At least if you want to move quickly?

Bryan Polite: I don’t want to get into too many specifics on strategy and things of that nature. We have the mindset, with others who are a part of this: Nothing’s off the table. So Indian gaming, commercial gaming — everything’s on the table. We’re exploring multiple options.

Q: Can you explain the difference between commercial gaming and Indian gaming?

Randy King: Well, first of all, there’s Class II and Class III. Class II is where you’re using computerized video slot machines. And there are no table games. Table games introduces roulette, craps, poker — live dealers. That’s Class III gaming.

The tribe has the right to do Class II gaming, and we would have to get a compact with the state for Class III once Class III is legalized in New York.

That’s the major difference — if the tribe were going to do something on the Class II level, it’d be something similar to Jake’s [58 Hotel & Casino in Islandia] or Resorts World [a casino in Queens]. If we were going to go into a commercial Class III gaming facility agreement with the state, then we’d be going in as a commercial entity, like a Caesars or a Sands or Hard Rock, and our tax rate would go up, and we would be basically a commercial entity.

Q: Am I hearing correctly: Class III, you couldn’t do right now in New York, unless it was under Indian gaming. You’d have to have a contract with the state, or you’d have to work out an agreement with the state. But you couldn’t do it at all as a commercial entity right now, because there’s no law allowing it in New York State. Correct?

Bryan Polite: Not now in the state, because when they amended the State Constitution four, five, six years ago, they allowed for five licenses upstate. And then, within seven years, they would open up for licenses downstate.

Q: Is that 2023?

Bryan Polite: Yeah. This period.

Q: So you’re looking at all options. Do you have a timetable for when you’d hope to have some progress, or when realistically you’d have some progress? Do you have any idea?

Bryan Polite: Yeah. As we said before in our press release and some interviews that we have had with your publication, we’re looking at the next phase. This is a multiphase, obviously, project with a lot of moving parts. It’s extremely complex.

So we’re going to move into the next phase within the next year. And, again, it’s a multiphase project. I think it’s a herculean task, but I think that we’re equipped to handle it.

Q: So if I understand correctly, there are only a couple of options as far as where you could do something like this. One would be that you have the territory to work with outside of the village. There’s an argument to be made that you have Westwoods [tribe-owned bayfront land in Hampton Bays]. Is the conversation about Westwoods? Is it about the territory? Or is it about purchasing land somewhere as some type of an agreement [with the state]? Or are all of those on the table right now?

Bryan Polite: Everything’s on the table. We can say that everything’s on the table. I mean, we’ve been pretty open about that. Obviously, [some] places are better than others. And we would hope that the town government and the state government will work with us to try [identify a location].

Q: Do you feel at this point that the best option on the table would be Westwoods?

Bryan Polite: At this point, in my opinion, the best option would be a place that, again, benefits everybody. We have always wanted to work to get the casino open so that it benefits everybody — not just the Shinnecock Nation but Long Island as a whole. And, obviously, the more revenue a project brings in, the better chances there are of everybody benefiting.

And so, just using that logic, the best place for any business would be closest to the city, as far as profitability.

Randy King: Gaming supports the tribe. Gaming supports the tribal government to provide for its people, whether it’s education, social services, health, housing. It creates that revenue stream.

… So we’re at a point where we have the ability, because of the depleted budgets across New York now because of the COVID situation, and small businesses not able to reopen, and large businesses having to do major layoffs, you have municipalities that can’t create the tax revenue that they used to, where you probably have a wave of foreclosures, God forbid.

We’d be not only a major contributor for our people but a major contributor for the region. And I think we’ve used that argument before in the past, but now so more than ever.

It becomes apparent that Cuomo is going to have to make some hard decisions soon. And if he can accelerate the timetable for the sunset period for the upstate casinos to bring the downstate licensing process to fruition, I think he’s going to have a hard decision to make whether he keeps with the current timeline or whether he accelerates it. I think the numbers are going to dictate his response.

Bryan Polite: The Nation could really help out in those regards. … That’s always been the Shinnecock [position]: not only to try to help out people but to try to also stimulate economic growth across Long Island. And also, more specifically, in a more expansive timeframe than just a couple of months in the summer.

Q: You envision this as more than just a gaming facility — this is going to be something bigger than that. Correct?

Bryan Polite: We want to create a real world-class destination. That’s also been another goal within the Shinnecock is to create a world-class destination that also showcased our culture to the rest of the world, and also gave people a place to come and do more than just go to a casino but a place that’s family-oriented that has stuff for everybody.

Randy King: We may have to do something more modest, also. In the immediate. And something closer to home.

So if the politics are going to dictate this, after we speak to the governor, speak to our local, regional political leaders, the politics on something like this are enormous.

Bryan Polite: Absolutely.

Q: How about the politics within Indian Country? Are you going to have trouble from the Mashantucket Pequots? They had opposed some of the earlier ideas that the tribe had, I think.

Bryan Polite: As our sister tribe, as our people, I think sometimes even if there are press reports of friction between the Mashantucks and the Shinnecocks, we love the Mashantucks and the Mashantucks love us. We have no ill will toward them, and they have no ill will toward us. We’re in constant contact with their tribal council. I have cousins over there. I’m sure Randy has cousins over there.

So there’s no animosity or any kind of friction between the Mashantucket Pequots and our nation. And, in fact, they actually advertised on our billboard last summer.

Q: When you talk about other uses for a property, are you talking about entertainment? Are you talking about a spa retreat? Do you have something in mind as far as the concept?

Bryan Polite: I really can’t get into too many specifics on the actual layout until it’s rolled out in the specific timeframes. We’re also under contract now and we have certain things that we cannot disclose. You can read into “a world-class destination” and look at our partners and kind of take it from there.

Q: You have a vision for this? You have at least a guiding idea of what you want this to be?

Randy King: Well, I’ll give you one little nugget here. I think in this era of COVID you kind of have to look to the internet to fulfill some of your gaming needs. I think, right now, with some of the apps that are out there, sports betting — I think we kind of have to look to that.

Because the traditional model of a casino, with the social distancing and the Plexiglas … I haven’t been to Foxwoods or Mohegan [Sun] since this hit. I don’t know how they’ve retrofitted their space. And because of the tribal/state agreements, I don’t know if they have to conform to certain spacing and capacity requirements. It may be under tribal law. I’m not sure.

But I think we kind of have to think outside the box in this day and age with COVID out there.

Q: The state would have to approve sports betting online for that to be an option, correct? New York State hasn’t approved that yet. Right?

Bryan Polite: I’m going to say no.

… I mean, there’s always that line between fed and state. And when it comes to state, they have little to no authority, except for we would have to get a gaming compact for Class III. But, other than that, we’re 100 percent within our sovereign rights to conduct civil matters as we see fit.

Q: Sports betting is really outside the whole Class I, Class II, Class III, right? It doesn’t really fit into any of those categories, does it?

Randy King: I don’t think it does.

Bryan Polite: It doesn’t. No. And, again, it’s untested waters. There are tribes that are venturing down that path, but there’s just not enough case law yet to actually make a formulated opinion at the moment.

Q: If you started with sports betting, that’s a lot less intensive as far as infrastructure, correct? You can set up the infrastructure to do sports betting fairly quickly.

Randy King: Correct. With the apps on your phone, the iPad, you kind of have to think where you are in this place in time and how you adapt to the market. And I see a lot of people adapting in different ways now.

Bryan Polite: Absolutely.

… I mean, just build-out cost alone. You save on that. And what I’ve learned over the years is the less money spent on attorneys or build-out, [the more that can be spent] for tribal members and programs.

Q: On balance, do you think the tribe has gained more from the gaming effort over the years, or has it cost the tribe more?

Bryan Polite: I’m not going to speak too much on the past, except for my own personal experience. And I think whatever happens in the community, overcoming adversity makes you stronger for it.

So I think that everything that we went through as a tribe, as a people, during those years only strengthen our resolve moving forward. There were also tremendous benefits that came during those years to the nation.

People try to paint it as turmoil and stuff like that. But, honestly, the majority of that time period was a sense of renewal on Shinnecock and a sense of pride, especially once we got our recognition and it was one of the first times where we actually started building our infrastructure.

So there were a lot of great things that happened during that time. And I think, as a community overall, it made us a stronger community.

Randy King: Great statement, Bryan.

Q: How much of an insult was Jake’s 58 and its approval after the Shinnecock had such a hard time with the state talking about trying to set up a facility? That had to have been just deeply insulting to the tribe.

Randy King: I will tell you that we’ve got to get back to the negotiation table with the governor. So I’m going to keep my lips shut as to what stage we would have been at if statements that were made were actually kept. I’ll leave it at that.

Q: You mean in your previous conversations with the state?

Randy King: Correct. And it wouldn’t have even been a concern. But they are, and we have to deal with it.

I’ve had Congress, senators, state senators tell me to my face, you know, round pegs don’t go in square holes when it comes to gaming, and there are ethical issues with gaming.

But all of that flew off the table when Jake’s was proposed for that particular part of Long Island. There were a few people who didn’t want it because of neighborhood issues, that they live too close to it. I think we were looking at acreage either there or near there. But that type of pushback that we got, they didn’t get. But I don’t know what actually happens behind the table.

Q: What did you interpret “square pegs and round holes” thing to mean?

Randy King: That the tribe wasn’t being taken seriously. … There was a big moral thing on gaming, which I kept saying, you have gaming in so many different forms. You have portable little gaming kits you can buy somebody for the holidays. You have reality shows based on gaming.

So it’s kind of a nonstarter for me when you use this ethical argument. So there’s got to be something else there. And what exactly is it? Round dowels don’t go in square holes. So whatever that means, it’s as simple as that.

Bryan Polite: I would just want to add that it’s deeply hypocritical and not just hypocritical. I think the fact that there was a moral outcry. I don’t believe back then it was a majority. … I know they did a couple of polls in New York about gaming. Those moral issues were quickly put to the back burner for most New Yorkers when they went to vote. The Constitution had to be amended by a vote of New York State citizens, and I’m pretty sure it passed. Again, I’d have to go back and look at the numbers.

So I think it was only morally reprehensible if we did it … but [if] it was run by people who were non-native or something like that, maybe it was, it’s okay.

… People were saying they thought that it was distasteful that Shinnecock was doing medical cannabis — but nobody was saying that it was distasteful for New York when New York decided to do medical cannabis.

At end of the day, we’re used to that double standard, sometimes. It’s just something that made us stronger as a people and realize that’s what we’re going to get sometimes with certain people. … There’s so much hypocrisy going on with the sign litigation, as well. It’s like anything we do economically, and when we step off the reservation, we just are confronted with unfair treatment.

Q: Are you having conversations now with the state?

Randy King: No, not yet. Well, not really. We’re having conversations with some of [the governor’s] administrative deputies to gather and funnel all the different Shinnecock issues that we have, which span from fishing to [memorandums of understanding] with the State Police, to … what else, Bryan?

Bryan Polite: The [Sunrise H]ighway easement right of way. Some of our issues with education, with our contracts, which started with the Southampton School District, and some areas of utilities. Augmenting the utility apparatus on the East End as far as PSEG and some of the other.

Randy King: And, yes, gaming compact discussion was discussed, because we were having active gaming compact discussion negotiation with the [Governor David] Paterson administration. That’s how long ago this is.

Q: But now it’s all part of a package of issues that you’re trying to work out with the state? I assume this all intertwines with, as you said, you’ve got the PSEG issue with the property at Westwoods. You’ve got a lot of different things that are sort of interconnected, and you’re approaching this with the state that it’s all part of the same conversation?

Bryan Polite: Yeah. There’s a term called “global settlement” that’s out there that Governor Cuomo and other governors [have used] in the past. [Governor George] Pataki, I believe, signed one with some of the upstate tribes. But it’s a way that New York state government can resolve a multitude of issues with tribes.

We’ve been really pushing to try to get a global settlement now for the better part of the last 20 years. Probably further than that. I don’t remember, because I was in high school. (Laughs.)

… I don’t really think that people truly understand the enormous amount of friction and issues that are between the New York State tribes and New York State government. It’s not just us. Tribes have a hard time with state governments because you have a sovereign within a sovereign within a sovereign, and that is bound to have friction.

But, again, we’ve been trying to get a global settlement. It’s not something that’s new. And we think that’s the best way to resolve it instead of trying to piecemeal this issue, that issue. For the most part they’re all connected to one of the biggest things — our sovereign right to self-determination. And that flies in the face sometimes with what New York State thinks they have the authority to do.

Randy King: We were talking about access to Shinnecock Road or Coopers Beach to access the ocean to swim, for parking there. We were talking about SUNY scholarships to high school kids bound for college. Some of the upstate tribes had, I think, energy credits from dams, water dams.

And so there are a lot of these discussions that have been going on for years — but when’s enough enough? It’s time to create a sense of finality with the state. And I think Bryan and the trustees from last year spoke to Letitia James, the attorney general, and they communicated some of these issues to her. And I hope to get back to the table with her.

Bryan Polite: We’re hopeful under this new AG, especially when she reached out, which has never happened before. And she was very open. She talked about coming to the table before going to litigation, resolving some of these long-standing issues.

Q: What would prompt the state to act at this point? Do you have anything that you can use as leverage to try and force some action?

Bryan Polite: That’s the thing. I don’t know about the vice chairman, but I’m so exhausted of having to try to do something to get a reaction from somebody, from an entity that’s supposed to have a responsibility as a government-to-government relationship. … I don’t have to do something outrageous just to get them to the table and talk, when we’re supposed to be government to government.

So at the end of the day it probably will take something like that to come to the table with us.

Q: The tribe supports this, right? You had a vote and it was overwhelming. It was, like, 137-9 in favor of exploring this. Is that correct?

Randy King: Yeah. I’ve got to give Bryan and the trustees from the last administration the credit on that. They brought the issue to the table. The people voted. They fully vetted it out, and the people want to see this done. They want to see something to be proud of, something where we would have jobs. We could provide jobs to the community, to the region. They want something to be proud of. They want to be contributors just like anybody else. They want this thing to come to fruition.